Olympian Temple - 2nd Days of Knights SC

Was other Dan on CI?

How do you get your initial economy going against Whizzard?

I didnt get to play vs you, but what I saw it was alot to deal with on the table - please note you need another playmat to play this. Also, playing vs 3 flavors/versions of this yesterday will put Paricia back into my runner rig :P

@CJFM He was on CI

@coyotemoon722 play well and spam fast enough that he crashes his econ. Pop up a turtlebacks or a pad.

@striker511 Matt?

Joe (waves from Cherry Hill NJ); DanD played CI and Faust to play something different.

Sorry that I spoiled your (otherwise) perfect deck performance for the day.

I did not deserve that win at all!

@Ino209 No worries I repaid you in kind with my runner win

Having been playing variations of this deck for a while I would like to ask you a question. Strong whizz players consistently snipe every piece of econ and sansans as soon as they see them. I find this leaves me with no money and a lot of assets sitting on the board unrezzed because I don't have any cash. This seems like it would be a particularly nasty problem in your case because your ice quite expensive with 2 booths and 2 assassins.

What do you do in this case? I have been finding that the deck just fizzles and they find points before I can get to the win.

Ahhh... this deck. I was one of the 6. It should have been a tolerable matchup for Noise. Instead CodeMarvelous breaking newsed and trashed Wyldside, bringing my game to halt. So much spam, so much team sponsorship value. Couldn't keep up with it. I slowed it up a bit with IMP counters, but I was never able to pressure the centrals the way I wanted.

It isn't an obvious deck to play. I'm sure the astrotrain will always be great, but I saw CM make several plays with double agenda turns, and some great baits to redirect runner attention.

I'm hoping he is on something else next tournament.

@frost-duty Unfortunately that is a price you pay is that your whizzard matchup is super hard. However your match up against literally everyone else is amazing.

@Conphas I won't be playing something else. All cat news all the time.

@CodeMarvelous I can attest Sponsored Temple Turtles is just so good, especially with the NEH ability. This does look like fun. Congrats!

RIP MoH, you were fun when you were new and shinny. Long live TS, why did we ever doubt you. Mumba Temple, looks like you are the winner from Kala Ghoda, though Vikram 1.0 is pretty nasty too.

I feel like there were a bunch of asses spam decks that came out with Kala Ghoda using MoH and MT. Since then it seems people have dropped the MoH and stuck with the asset spam plan with just MT.

This deck looks super fun and strong. I will certainly have to try it out :)

I'm confused. How exactly do you score with this deck, just protect SanSan City Grid for as long as possible with the odd "install three cards one is an agenda"?

Really cool looking deck. Obviously the main game plan is flooding the runner with too many assets to keep up with. What are some common mind games you can use to score out in other ways? I imagine you would need some against a runner who keeps your sansans and TS down.

@ggDropbear You have to keep in mind if the runner is staying on top of all must trash assets, you will get the san san rezzed. Also, you can always ice it if you need to, or breaking news reinstall it with TS.

@Janxsta if the runner is not checking remotes I won't rez all assets and then bluff out a 3/2 to force them to check everything and buy me a set up turn.

I still can't get behind Hostile Infrastructure. It's costs as much to rez as to trash, has the effect of 1, maybe 2 net damage in the long run, does nothing from R&D/HQ, and doesn't threaten a runner other than meager annoyance. (Or the super rare apoc I guess...) It's another 'must trash' sure, but are you going to ice it? Is it really going to give runners pause in trashing other 'must trash' assets? Isn't it a more 'best case scenario' rez when you have MT's up? Snares still do it for me. Can be faced checked out of centrals which is much better IMHO. Landing a tag last click can often lead to tempo swings against Wyldside, and even when they don't land last click the 2 to clear is still valuable. 3 net + 2 creds to clear tag with opportunity to fire from R&D/HQ/Remote for 4 credits versus 1 or 2 net + 5 creds to trash, must be installed in remote and vulnerable to pre-trash in centrals for 5 creds. What has your testing shown you that has kept you on the HT train instead?

@Celebnar Hostile Infrastructure is yet another tax on the runner trashing stuff. It's not about trying to flatline, it's about making the runner pay out the butt for trashing. Also, the fact that you can Rez it for cheap with Mumba Temple compared to having to pay 4 actual credits is a bonus. Not to mention, 1 Snare typically isn't enough of a threat to warrant an include, especially when you have no other flatline threat.

@Glitch I know it's not about flatline, neither is Snare. Same influence though, so if you're running 2 HI, 2 Snare fit perfectly as well. I get the Mumba Temple interaction, but that's often just best case scenario thinking. Snare is also tag threat which can't be ignored in the Wyldeside meta. The multiaccess threat of a snare in the middle of a dig is not insignificant to runners, and can lead to a tempo swing. HI doesn't. HI is another trash, sure, but in much more controlled (to the runner) circumstances. Snare gets the corp ahead for a turn more often then not, and in yellow that can mean the first astro or more.

@vinegarymink Do you wanna weigh in on why hostile is good?

Are they best for the four influence? That's a biotic and an in faction asset, or a crick and another turtleback. I like hostile (especially to dodge siphon) but I agree that it does feel underwhelming compared to everything else.

@Janxsta having one on the table either stalls them a turn when they trash it or if it stays down they usually don't trash anything for the rest of the game. That is worth its weight in gold for the late game. Also it saves you from Apocalypse

@CodeMarvelous Could you talk about why only two Turtlebacks? Would you make changes to get the third (like swap GFI for other options)?

@celebnar "HI...does nothing from R&D/HQ"

Note that HI on the table does deal damage if they're trashing cards from HQ or RnD, and still taxes 5 creds if they access it from either of those places. It's defense against Keyhole and Apocalypse, two considerable silver bullets for the deck. I ran a similar deck recently (and actually another similar one last year in SC season), and often found I was looking for places to sink my Mumba Temple creds, this is a perfect target.

I have to concur that Hostile Infrastructure is a hugely worthy include. Unlike Snare, it's never a dead card, because at the very least it says "Ambush: Runner loses 5. Once it's on the table and rezzed, I have had the same experience as @CodeMarvelous: people just stop trashing things. They give up on that side of the game and then they're doomed, because the rezzed Daily Business Shows will find your scoreable agendas and end the game. Nothing is more demoralizing to a runner, even Whizzard, than to eat the tempo hit of trashing high cost accesses only to see them go right back out of archives.

Oddly enough I think the previous 54-card iteration is slightly stronger in the Whizzard matchup, because the Museum of History is another must-trash asset that slows down their board development if they don't want it to erode all their hard work. But maybe Interns and Team Sponsorship will do as well, I'll have to try. I find I have a very specific playstyle that sometimes prevents me from just picking up a deck and running with it.

If runners stop trashing things due to HI's, they're weak and don't know how they need to beat this deck...and you should have beat them anyways. HI is a 5 credit check to see if your opponent knows what they are doing, with hope that 1 or 2 net damage gets a lucky hit. I don't like to say any card is 'win-more' in netrunner, but in this specific case the runners who are dissuaded by HI are the same runners you should beat anyways. They are the ones who make poor choices and don't understand the NEH-asset-spam meta already. Good runners can eat 1 net damage a turn against this deck, and keep you in check until they can safely dispose of HI when economically stable. It shuts down keyhole for the time it takes them to run HI and kill it, at which point keyhole is on the table and you have all sorts of other problems if you didn't ice R+D well enough. I'll certainly grant the apoc surprise. Long story short, examine how many games HI will win you against runners who know what assets are truley 'need to kill' to stop this deck, and how many you lose when a skilled runner knows HI is a speedbump at best, and go on tearing the economic heart out of your deck instead.

I don't know if Snare! is the answer, so I'll tool around with some other uses for that 4 inf and 2 slots.

I like the HI but I've been testing +1 turtle, +1 crick, +1 marked accounts, -1 popup. Crick really sets them back if fired, marked accounts is another 5 trash econ asset, and more turtles are better. I haven't gone against an apoc deck yet, which is really the biggest argument towards HI. I think either set up is fine.

Again I must reiterate, in all my skilled opponent testing, HI bought me important breathing room in the mid game, or disincentivized the runner from continuing to trash especially if there was a san san already rezzed. The deck is top tier competitive as it is, Alex White, the UK Nats champ went undefeated with this exact list we worked on. Try the list before you decide what needs to be changed.

I've been trying it @CodeMarvelous, continually. Both a 54 and 49 version. Both identical to this, and without HI. I know it's top tier, that's not in question at all. It's a hella good deck and I've got nothing but respect for it's power, but in this case my testing has shown HI to be a non-factor in deciding games against opponents who know the deck and how to handle it.

Consider from the angle of the runner, not from the best case scenario of the corp as you're discussing it from. What do you do when seated across from this and the corp rezzes an HI? Consider the board state, is it early and the only 'must kill' up the HI? No problem, burn it down with the next click. Is it mid game and the board chalk full of other assets equally on the 'must kill' list? Are there Mumba Temples rezed? SanSan? TS? Those need to die faster, and 2 or 3 net damage at the runners choosing isn't going to change that. Or really shouldn't for a good runner, else they concede the better assets and just lose the game to that pressure? Presumably this runner has a decent economy and the skill testing equation here is order of 'must-kill' assets and pokes at the centrals. If they don't, HI is a non-factor because the corp is ahead enough. If they do, HI is a non-factor because it doesn't persuade a smart runner from killing the higher priority assets and just absorbing a damage or two, or even three or four, before getting around to the HI when the board is more stable for them.

That's what I mean by highly skilled runners won't care about HI in this deck. It skill-checks to see if the runner has prioritized the right assets that need to be trashed.

Another reason I am still fond of the 54. So many must-trash: Museums, SanSans, DBS, Temples. We haven't even gotten to the econ yet.

Haven't had time to test this, must get on that.

@CodeMarvelous, what do you think of Architect in asset spam NEH? It's not worth the influence?

@CodeMarvelous I swapped Hostile Infrastructure for Cerebral Static and suddenly my Whizzard matchup is favorable for me and I imagine that my Noise matchup also is.

@fredrikc now that is a really neat idea.

Very good against Leela and Hayley too. You can fire static and start scoring against Leela without her ability deconstructing your centrals. I'm also finding that the static slows Hayley's build to a halt. She has a lot of cards that are good when they don't cost anything but really underwhelming when she has to pay a click for them.

@codemarvelous - I took this deck to our local meet last night. Hayley and Val both were relatively easy wins. But criminal, not so much. Turntable-Leela and Andy/sectest/desp both crushed me. What's the line against criminal runners who have enough money to trash everything (eventually)?

@Tolaasin NEH bullshit, win fast, play smart, cover HQ

Two ideas I got, what would you think ?

1) how about switching one GFI to another 5/3, add 1 turtle back and remove interns ?

2) how about adding the third portfolio and remove interns ?

With TS and jackson I've not seen a big need for interns.

Sorry forgot about idea 3) add 15 minutes instead of one BN

As we only have the trash ressource action to use the tag, I guess BN is not that much useful compared to 15 ?

@Jahz From my experience the Breaking News is pretty key, if you have a rezzed SanSan (which you should) you can FA it then kill their Wyldside, Kati, etc. Also interns can be a lifesaver if they're trashing your TS and you really need a SanSan City Grid back from archives. Thanks for the awesome list @CodeMarvelous!