Replicating Kills - Honor's edition! (BETA)

Dydra 2773

Okay, so today I finally sat down and went through the Jinteki cards in the new expansion. Leaving alone the countless new decks that sprout in my mind, I decided to focus on improving an already solid deck. There are two major branches where I see the Replicating Kills deck going and today I'll share one of them, which is closer to the original deck.

I'll actually get my hands on the expansion next Wed, so there is some heavy theory crafting involved here, but to be honest, all decks in the next 1 month or more will be the same, because we will definitely need a couple of months to feel out the new cards and where the Runner meta is shifting especially. Having said this though, I'm about 4/5 sure that the changes I make here will play out as expected, because I'm really familiar with the original deck and its playstyle =)

General Mindset

Agendas Spread

Changes:

  • 1x Philotic Entanglement -> for -> 1xFetal AI . This agenda is really strong in any kill deck and although I'm sure that it will see a lot more usage in PE, having 1 for 0 advance score and not to mention all the damage combos that it will sprout ( put 3 advances on it and score it at the start of your turn +3 more clicks for Neural, PS and friends). It's basically like what Braintrust could do in the old deck, but so much better in this deck because of all the on score effects.

  • 3x The Future Perfect -> for -> 3x Priority Req. This is basically an auto-include, because it's a 3-pointer with an in-build Caprice effect. The only, and only, reason you would play Priority Req in this deck is if the new ICE proves to be way too expensive.

Speaking of ICE

Tatara... the cavalry has arrived !!

Komainu

  • I love this card so much. Now they can forget about running without their codegate breaker as well! It also punishes blind Knight-ing, because enjoy that loss of 10 credits ;) The only problem for this card is Parasite and that's why I'm playing just 1 copy. Parasite just destroys Komainu. If the meta shifts out away from Parasite I'll jack up even 2 or 3 of it.

Shiro

  • What Yagura wants to be when it grows up? =) It's just a much stronger Yagura oriented towards mid and late game. Now I have a question about the 2nd subroutine of this ICE. Does it mean that he access the top card as in he can't jack out? Or as in he immediately access it, before next ICE (if there is such)? Either way it will be good, but it might make me try to squeeze in 3x Snare! instead of the 3x Shocks!

Susanoo-no-Mikoto

  • Now, here is the one change which I'm most uncertain about. On one side it's just a great piece of ICE to have on your remote. Soaks up 4 data sucker token for a mimic and 7 money on a ninja. Obviously, the 3xShocks in the deck are here for that ICE. Here is where it gets tricky. Obviously you would wan't to leave the Archives open so Susanoo's sub can send them in there for "free 3 net damage". However, a good player, will use the no-ICE archives to easily get rid off the Identity's ability and jack out without accessing. IF you put ICE on Archives, Susanoo will send them into it (which could be nice if it's an Ichi 1.0 or smt) and they won't get hit by Shocks!. This particular synch will need testing.

Guard

  • You want 3 of those, because Inside Job might be the only thing that they can pull out early game to access your remote and with the new Criminal IDs I bet we will see quite a lot of Inside Jobing ;)

You have 9 free influence in this deck - Go NUTS on the crazy ICE!

  • The ones I threw in are just an example of what I feel would be good in this deck. The 2x Ichi 1.0 will do some work, the Tollbooth as always is perfect fit for this deck. Heimdal 2.0 is an overkill for this deck and it's probably the first card you should swap out if you feel poor, but it's just there to give you an idea how much free influence and crazy things u can put in ;)

The other cards ...

Mushin No Shin

  • This card will do some solid work in this deck. First it takes a HUGE financial burden off you for advancing your agendas. Second and more importantly you can bait them so hard with Psychic Field. You just put it there and they are like "oh 3 advances, can't be Snare! let's expose it to see if it's a 3 pointer or 2 pointer" - GG sons ;) It has infinite amount of uses in this deck and not to mention that putting the new 2/3 agenda with it , fits perfectly for the combo of scoring it at the star of your next turn + the 3 clicks to do damage.

Chairman Hiro

  • Every company should have a Chairman, right?! He is IDEAL for this deck and here are a few reasons why. One - it works like NAPD contract for 2 more credits! Two- makes killing the runner a piece of cake! Three - IT WORKS WITH PS !! Omg, sry for the caps, it's just that this card gives me a huge boner in this deck ;)

Psychic Field + Diversified Portfolio+ Shocks

  • Well, the Diversified Portfolio comes in as a replacement for Subliminal. This will need some testing, but the general idea is that it will make use of laying down unprotected Private Contracts, Shocks and Psychic Fields (maybe even some Sundews), which you will be putting down anyway, to not clog your hand and have space for PS and Neural EMPs. If it doesn't prove to work as intended, swap out for 2x Celebrity Gift and enjoy.

  • Psychic Field. Except the obvious synergy with Mushin no Shin, which I talked about, it will pay off for Diversified Portfolio and the runner needs exactly one run into them, to stop checking your unadvanced, unprotected remote servers ;)

  • Shocks! obviously for the synergy with Susasnoo's subroutine. What I would do (if no space in hand) would be to throw one down, unprotected for Diversified Portfolio to earn me money! If I draw into another one, install over the first sending the first one in the Archives ready for Susanoo's! IF testing proves that the synergy doesn't worth it, swap 3x Shock! for 3xSnare! with same usage, but Snare! synergy with Shiro!

I think that pretty much covers it ;) I'll be editing and formatting for a while, please BEAR with me for 1-2 days until I get the text in its final form. Oh yeah ... You get 9 free influence in this deck so go fucking crazy! The only thing that you need out of faction is Punitive Counter-Strike!

As always feel free to leave comments, questions and likes ;) I'll get to them when I see them!

13 comments
30 Apr 2014 karmaportrait

Very interesting! I'm picking up H&P today.

Some quick thoughts: 1) What's economy like? The ICE in here is relatively expensive and only have Sundew and Private Contracts to count on, maybe a diversified portfolio.

2) Considered throwing in a Ronin? Another card with solid synergy with Mushin No Shin

3) Another great card I see for this deck would be Encryption Protocol. Again, what to drop though... ;)

30 Apr 2014 Dydra

Yeah, I was actually thinking about Ronnin as I was making the deck. It would definitely be a good fit, as you mentioned yet another crazy synergy with Mushin no Shin, but card slots !!

The Old deck's economy was 3x Sundew, 3x Private Contracts , 2x Subliminal for starters and it worked out quite fine ( a lot of expensive ICE there too, although Priority Req helped out a bit as well). As I wrote in the regarding the Diversified Portfolio part, it comes on the place for Subliminal, but if testing doesn't prove to worth it, just swap back for Subliminal or Celebrity.

I just had a killer idea. Since the ICE in here is 16 already (and was playing the old deck with 15) , on the place of Bastion 2.0 might put 1 (or 2 if cut some more space) GRNDL refineries ... Mushin no Shin -> Into GRNDL -> +1 - 4 advance ,ext turn 3 more ... 28c in 2 turns??? YES PLEASE !

30 Apr 2014 karmaportrait

Mushin no Shin to GRNDL sounds awesome. Need to protect the GRNDL until next turn of course. And then need to find the influence/deckspace. ;)

30 Apr 2014 falseidol

I've been doing a lot of contemplating on Susanoo-no-Mikoto, and how to make its effects work most effective. I think the most surface level play is to just play it actually over archives. It still forces an access if you only want to layer 1 deep, or you can use it as a big whirlpool to get them to slam into an interior ICE you've been saving?

Second option would be to protect archives with himitsu-bako early (I'm not sure how quickly you get painful ICE over archives, but himitsu-bako will allow you to pool the painful stuff in there a bit, or you could use trashing ICE like data mines (or just a whirlpool). And I hate to use the security subcontract word, but you could definitely play security subcontract when you want to "open the floodgates" so to speak.

30 Apr 2014 Dydra

I already did ;) 2x GRNDL -> 2x Diversified Portfolio , 3rd Himitsu Bako-> Heimdal 2.0 , took 2x Ichi 1.0 out and put 1x Reclamation Order to return trashed GRNDL and Mushin no Shin. Yeah and increased the Mushin no Shin to 3, because of how key it becomes for the deck :O

Will try both versions of the deck for sure ;)

30 Apr 2014 bubo

I've been using Mushin no Shin into GRNDL Refinery with my Finger Snap V.3 and GRNDL Wet Works decks for a little over a month, and can testify to the strength of this combo.

Keep in mind that if you're not running advancable traps, then the odds of keeping GRNDL Refinery for a third turn is very low. My typical play is Mushin + Advance for 4 tokens, next turn 2 more Advances for 6 tokens then I use my last click to turn in the GRNDL Refinery for 24 credits.

30 Apr 2014 Dydra

I don't know how you would be using it for over a month since the card is just coming out but w/e ;)

30 Apr 2014 bubo

@Dydra: Proxy cards. There is no game at all in my area, with the nearest tournament a 20 hour drive away. As such, I have a very small group playing which leads to relatively inbred builds. We incorporate spoilered cards to help keep our variety up, and because we recognized that spending time with sub-optimal cards in a future release helps with our understanding of it. Hence how we identified the GRNDL Refinery and Mushin no Shin combo as well as Mushin no Shin's full potential back in March.

1 May 2014 Dydra

Bubo, as much as I'm sorry for the situation you are in, there is a problem of proxying cards ahead of time. The reason being is that when you proxy a card into the current meta and decks, that hardly becomes representative of anything, because you don't proxy the rest of thew new cards that will come together with it and the meta that they will bring. That's why, at so many places, instead of furiously theory crafting about H&P (which I've seen u done), I just hold my horses and just now when we have all the cards spoiled, I'm releasing a deck and it's neither a completely new deck, nor I'm saying "hey guys, this will work 12903810293810293% and will crush whatever comes up next 2 months".

My point, understanding cards needs A LOT of testing ... and not only in a vacuum of current pool, but also with the new cards that will be printed and the meta that they will bring.

Saying that, feel free to play with your friends the game in anyway you like =) Just don't drop out such "things" like they are facts ;)

1 May 2014 bubo

@Dydra, I think that we have different viewpoints on the "problem of proxying cards ahead of time". Meta is the interaction between different cards and is an incredibly important aspect of a game such as Netrunner. However, meta is an extension of understanding the foundation of the subject. I learn the meta at the same rate as people like you, who start working with it as release. However, I begin to learn the foundation at the point that it is spoiled, and the meta as it applies to past releases.

I'm not saying that mine is a better way, it is merely a different approach than you utilize. In this particular instance, I was able to identify potential usage of Mushin No Shin in conjunction with past releases, such as the GRNDL / Mushin combo that started our discussion. My group allowed me to theory test this combo and start practical application in the meta as it existed at the time. You are correct, these "things" do not reflect the full meta of the full release (for example, Shiro and Susanoo-No-Mikoto are true game changers for Jinteki). However just because the meta that we have theory tested is incomplete does not mean that understanding the meta with past releases is not fact. If this were the case, then how did we manage to identify the GRNDL / Mushin combo back in March with enough confidence that we incorporated it in most of my published decks (I'm the oddball builder for my group, and usually introduce concepts that are refined by the others)?

Again, I'm not saying that mine is a better way than yours. Rather, it is like different schools of martial arts. Your method contains many strengths that mine does not, but your strength does not mean that my way has no strength at all. Part of what makes sites such as this great is because people utilizing different methodology can posit their results and solicit feedback from others applying their own methodology. In that process, we create a meta of building here that hopefully helps all of us grow in our build skill.

Probably a good example is your popular Replicating Kills v1.0 (a guide how to play RP properly) deck.

  • Is it a good deck? Absolutely.

  • Is it a good write up of how to play RP properly? It's a great write up! I've referred quite a few others to your discourse on why Wall of Thorns is a bad card.

  • Is it the best way to play RP? It is the best way for you to play RP. It is a great way for the majority of people to play RP. However, it is not the best way for everybody to play RP. Not because of anything inherently wrong with your build, but because different people have different mind sets. There will never be a best method for everyone to play any particular concept because of their differences. Which leads to my next item:

  • Does Bubo like this deck? Not particularly. As I've said elsewhere, I feel that Neural EMP is dropping out of the meta and I dislike the requirement of losing an Agenda to the Runner to trigger Punitive Counterstrike. For me, this would not be a good deck to play because I will struggle with the tempo and mind set.

  • Is this a waste of time because Bubo doesn't like it? Absolutely not! Again, Replicating Kills v1.0 (a guide how to play RP properly) is a great deck! Just because I dislike playing it does not mean that I did not learn from it, and from your write up!

Getting back to our particular discussion over spoilers versus released cards, why don't you consider my process before you pass judgement on it. Now, I've learned that unfortunately I just don't have the proper skill and/or mindset to build a great Runner deck. I try, but I always find myself looking at other builds and realizing early that they are superior to whatever I'm attempting. However, I have found that I have an affinity for Corporate decks with a particular interest in Jinteki (and GRNDL: Power Unleashed for some weird reason). As I mentioned earlier, I'm the oddball builder of my small group in all of the games we play. When I find new spoiler cards in my forte, I make it a goal to build a deck highlighting each particular card in each of the four factions. It doesn't matter how terrible the card is at face value (ugh, Restoring Face), I work out some method to build a deck around it. Most of these decks are just Goldfished and deconstructed, but the ones that have a mechanic that catches my attention is reviewed and rebuilt. I have proxies of concept decks from the Hall of Fame here which I grind these rebuilds against to determine low count statistics. Anything that gets at least a 15% pass rate is then rebuilt again for facing my group. I intentionally shape this rebuild to address the Hall of Fame meta that I find here out of recognition that my group uses inbred decks. After I play the decks to the point of boredom (which is fairly fast for me), I perform a final analysis of combinations that worked and didn't work, and then retire the build. Out of those varied analysis, I then construct the few decks that I have posted here.

Is this the best way to go about this? Probably not. It's very wasteful in time and energy, and only spots around 25%-40% of the discoveries made by the group here. Am I a great player for doing this? Again, probably not. I've still got a lot to learn and have been schooled by quite a few of you on card nuances that I did not understand (although I still don't really like Yagura). However, are my efforts a waste of time? Absolutely not. I like to think that it provides an insight that's unique to myself, which others can glean at least some data for their own methodologies.

Finally, getting back to the original statement that you made, why do you assume that because I follow my way of building that I do not also perform a similar analysis of "new cards that will come together with it and the meta that they will bring" that you do at release?

3 May 2014 Dydra

Because first, I imagine you would get too jacked in to a card working in a certain way in the current meta and the current decks. Second, I personally, would not have the face to say something in front of my playgroup like "oh this card will be bonkers" and then the full set gets released and something comes up that shits up on the combo/deck that the card in question was doing. I've said this only for 3 cards - Jackson Howard, Sundew in RP and Plan B. So far I guess we can agree that I guessed correct on 2/3.

I've generally had a bone to pick with what you said, that you "understood Mushin no Shin's full potential back in March", because that is absolutely not true. The full potential of this card we will know maybe after 1 month at least. You've learned a certain mechanic/combo and that's it. Far, far, from full potential of a card =)

As for your method of learning. I've said "you are free to play the game in anyway you like" and of course that refers to as you are free to learn the game/cards in anyway you like. Of course you should do what you enjoy and whatever works for you =)

3 May 2014 bubo

.... I must be in a bad mood, I can't believe that I'm replying to this argument.

@Dydra, In regards to your first and second point, again that's just a matter of difference in methodology, although your imagined "get too jacked in" does not happen with me. Applying that statement without spending time with me is simply projecting imagined faults onto me.

I believe that you are missing the context of my statement. The phrase "full potential, back in March" with an added comma would indicate full knowledge attained in March. The actual statement of "full potential back in March" includes a delimiter indicating that the context is as it stood in the time frame of March (specifically referring to the March meta). On the other hand, if we are not working with time frame delimiters like that, then even your "maybe after 1 month" statement is erroneous as well, since the potential will change with every release (just like Cerebral Imaging) and we have high confidence of more than 3 releases in the future. The whole thing is such a minor point, though, and hardly worth a "bone to pick".

To be fair, "full" potential was probably too strong a word choice. I only collected data on and identified strong combos in GRNDL (and Thomas Haas to a lesser extent), Trick of Light, Phase 1 and Phase 3 Project Junebug / Cerebral Overwriter, and hiding non-advancement traps (plus spending time measuring out weaker combos such as Plan B or other Phase 2/3 advancement traps), but I hardly think using too strong a word is enough to warrant a "bone to pick".

Regardless of the context or bone picking, my ire is up simply because you have dismissed my month worth of experience with the GRNDL / Mushin combo specifically as not " 'things' like they are facts". I have been working with that combo for a month prior to release and I offered my experiences with that combo in agreement with your own statements regarding the same combo plus added minor additional data regarding risk timing in and out of a heavy trapping context, but somehow they are not fact because I spent time with it before the release and your data is fact because you did not spend time with it. At the very least you could spend more than a few days testing it before telling me that I'm wrong (or point out where I misunderstood the card, if you determine that is the case).

To be clear, differences in our methodology is encouraged and will likely provide different results and disagreements between us, but calling my contributions false only because I don't follow your methodology is rather offensive. Provide an explanation showing why I'm wrong and I'll thank you for the correction, but all you have said here is that I'm wrong only because I worked with the card when it was just a spoiler and then attacked my methodology and the semantics of "full potential".

4 May 2014 Dydra

I'm not gonna even bother, but obviously you aren't understanding what I'm telling u either =) I'm jut so pass online/forum flame wars .... like 8-9 years pass that and I really cba