Untrashable v6

db0 2872

The Untrashable for the Honor & Profit era. I can't express how much The Future Perfect helps this deck


This deck is built on the idea that running any single remote against Jinteki:RP is going to be more expensive, and then makes your assets and upgrades even more costly to trash with Encryption Protocols.

Eventually you want a good pile of money plus Ash + Hokusai Combo with some Encryption Protocols on the side. Effectively you would force the runner to have to waste 3 clicks, take 2 damage and spend a good pile of credits just to take a look at a remote once. Then you recur your Ash with Howards or Interns.

Sundew is the star of this deck. Protect it early with a Chimera or leave it unprotected if the runner does not trash assets and it can proivide a truckload of money over the course of the game.

This is a version with less econ (just 6 assets) but with Archives punishment instead. Those in turn function kinda like a soft econ, as you can drop them in archives and discourage sucker/desperado runs without using any ICE. Unfortunately the runner can still run and jackout without accessing, so eventually you'll prolly want something light as well there, like a shadow.

Because shocks and shi.kyu discourage Archives access, very often you'll be able to hide one or two agendas in there for a longer time than usual, giving you a breather.

Closed Accounts might seem like a weird card in this deck, but it has caught a lot of players unaware, especially if they gathered a few tags from shadows before this hit the table. However it's there primarily for counter to tag-me/siphon runners, because otherwise they will walk all over you.

17 comments
3 May 2014 datadouble

I wonder if the description refers to a different version (I'm guessing v5?) since this one has only 1x Shock in it.

Also, I'm curious to hear your opinion on Shi.Kyu. I have not played with it at all, and I find it difficult to evalute in RP, mostly because I feel that runners are encouraged to run either rezzed remotes or draw up and hit R&D against RP. I guess the plan is to drop it in Archives and use it as a greatly flexible Shock until they take the -1 agenda point to remove it. Would you ever consider installing it first, or would you drop it directly from hand?

Second, how do you feel about Mental Health Clinic instead of or in addition to the PAD Campaigns? (Someone commented about them on the v5 page, I thought I'd bring it up here as well.)

Finally, the lack of non-asset econ worries me a little. Everything works nicely once Sundew shows up, but if that doesn't happen early enough, I feel that it becomes quite hard to set everything up to protect that mid-to-late Sundew sufficiently. Is the backup plan to keep drawing with Howard until you see a Sundew, or am I missing something?

4 May 2014 emime

Ha! When I saw Pup I knew it would find its way into this (absolutely fantastic) deck! Both Datapike and Swordsman worked very well for me though: how do you feel after the swap?

Another item of reflection is whether Philotic Entanglement could replace one of the Fetal AIs to basically fulfill the same role of the singleton Ronin (as in my experience it often happens that the runner has two or three agendas before the tide turns against him): this could give some more space not to reduce the number of Shock! too much, as it is brilliant in archives (albeit of a different brilliance than Shi.Kyū). What do you think?

4 May 2014 db0

@datadouble, yeah I updated the description to include shi.kyu. Shi.Kyu is being evaluated atm. I think it has potential, since even one guarantees they'll need 4 agendas to win, which is very useful in a taxing deck like this.

Mental Health clinic I am considering. Since I rely on damage only as a tax mechanism, allowing them to hold more junk in their hand might be counter-productive and it also hurts my work compression making Fetals slightly worse. But I want to play it to see how it goes.

The econ is usually fine but yeah if all my sundews are at the bottom of the deck, I have issues. Fortunately that is very unlikely to happen. I don't run more operation econ since they tend to be useless in the late game when I'm flush with cash.

@Emime: I'm evaluating it. At the moment it looks pretty decent as an early game ICE, especially since AI breakers have phased out of most decks. Philotic Entanglement is also a possibility but I don't want another agenda the runner might just steal with no cost and at absolute best it will do 3 damage, so I'm not sure it's worth it.

4 May 2014 Dydra

db0 , nice upgrade ... I'm still yet to get a hold of an H&P next Wed, so the upgrade for my Replicating KIll deck is still in BETA, but definitely a nice point about Shi.Kyu. I also have switched out the Priority Req for The Future Perfect and throw in a new 2/3 Agenda instead of 1 Fetal, just for the sick kill potential that agenda has.

Aren't you feeling you are a bit too light on the ICE? I mean despite of running only 12, which I think might be a bit hard drawing into them, the Jacksons must be helping u there, how do you exactly deal against R&D lock?

4 May 2014 falseidol

Mental Health Clinic, I think will be totally playable, I can see the concern if runner leaves 3 of them tabled, but honestly I think they will be a pretty high priority target, its net cash right away, and that trash cost is just low enough to not be able to justify letting the corp get that cash every turn, while still being a decent little exchange for you when they trash it.

4 May 2014 AsteriskCGY

One of my thoughts was by switching Pads out for Clinics I should switch out snares for Shi Kyu's, as now net damage isn't the risk, so game prolongation is now the trap.

4 May 2014 butcherpaxton

I'm a little surprised there aren't any Diversified Portfolios in this.

4 May 2014 GreatGreedyGuts

Asterisk has the same though I had, actually. Your net damage will still eat cards from their hands -- possibly sniping valuable ones -- but the 'worst-case' scenario of three MHCs out means you're getting 3 unfettered credits/turn, which is quite nice, and much more helpful. I've found runners hesitate to trash MHCs, especially once there are multiple copies in play, more than they did PADs. That'll likely go away, sooner or later, but in the meantime, well...

It also opens them up to Komainu -- pop one of those in, and while it won't end runs it will require a lot of dosh or Parasiting, and with your ability to recur Ice with Interns... well, you hit them hard the first time, and make them spend through the nose each subsequent time.

MHC also costs you less to recur, there's no window for the runner to make you lose cash on the investment, or force you to slow down. It's just straight back into making money for you, nice as you like.

Snare honestly isn't more valuable than Shocks here, I don't think. It costs more of your money, and while the tag is nice, it isn't back-breaking. It might help land a Closed Account, but I'd rather take the 3 Shocks and make the Shi.Kyu hit in Archives more hefty for less cash.

I'm curious about the lack of Susanoo-no-Mikoto and Inazuma, actually. Is it just a shortage of Ice. S-n-M is basically a 7-strength ETR Sentry that can turn an undefended archives into a forced trap (as if there's no ice, they can't jack out, and therefore MUST access your Shocks and Shi.Kyus). It's weak to Knight, the only remaining prominent AI breaker, but everything else has to pay through the nose for it, and Knight can be deterred with something nasty in front/behind, or by trashing and recurring it with Interns, depending.

The issue with burst econ is that the flat-out best inclusion is Diversified Portfolio... but if you're in a situation where it'll bring much return, you don't need it.

I've really been finding that it's easier to pressure their economy over their cards, for whatever reason, and eke out wins like that. I'll probably throw my list up here at some point, once I've tested it out a bit more and made sure it works decently.

5 May 2014 AsteriskCGY

Inazama maybe if you're doing a single scoring server. so you can force Yog tax on a remote, but positional Ice is a hard call for a horizontal game like RP. But Susanoo does sound like a good call for strong taxing ice. I had a plan of switching a Tsurugi with a Susanoo, but with Clincs Komainu sounds like a stronger priority. I also want to slide in Shiro, but realize this deck still wants some early ice.

5 May 2014 w1kk

How is your matchup against whizzard? I'm thinking it could be hard to Win with the amount of trashing he can dish out. How do you play against him?

5 May 2014 ekayohlee

Adding to all the people suggesting Mental Health Clinic. I replaced PADs with it in my forked deck (Striving for Perfection), and it's so much better for overcoming early econ struggles. While it's cheaper to trash than PADs, so far I've noticed that runners are less likely to trash it due to its benefit for them.

Plus Mental Health Clinic has GREAT synergy with Komainu (I replaced my Wall of Thorns and Tsurugis with three Komainus). If the runner wants to keep a sizable grip or take advantage of the increased hand size, they'll have to pay a lot -- or sacrifice a Deus Ex or Faerie -- to bounce off or pass all those Komainu subroutines. There's no end-the-run subroutine like Tsurugi, but few runners will continue if they lose their hand. Plus, you can rez a Komainu first turn without needing to take a credit.

5 May 2014 db0

All very good ideas. Koimanu + Mental health sounds decent. Susanoo + Shocks also makes a lot of sense. Should I remove my Wall of Thorns for it? Hmm, I'm going to try a bunch of those out folks and come back with v7. Thanks :D

6 May 2014 evilgaz

Shi.Kyū counts as an Agenda right? So if you've got Philotic Entanglement wedged in there, they would count for extra damage too? Or have I got that wrong?

6 May 2014 Dydra

u are wrong .... PE hits for agenda points .... -1 isn't an agenda point, it makes ur current agenda points -1 ;) so instead of hitting for 6, if they have that stolen it will hit them for 5 :P

6 May 2014 ekayohlee

Philotic hits for number of agendas, not points.

"When you score Philotic Entanglement, do 1 net damage for each agenda in the Runner's score area."

"The Runner must take either X net damage or add Shi.Kyū to his or her score area as an agenda..."

So if the Runner has two Shi.Kyū but no other Agendas, they would receive two damage when Corp score Philotic.

6 May 2014 GreatGreedyGuts

I removed my Wall of Thorns for Susanoo. People keep playing Fracters, but the only thing to break with 'em is the occasional Chimera -- the best counter to Corroder... is not to play any. I mean, there are other issues with that, obviously, but... it seems to work out pretty well. Especially in those games where the opponent unthinkingly plays a Morning Star, which sets them back ever so much for pretty literally no benefit.

6 May 2014 db0

Yeah, it's great when you force them to play a Morgning Star, a Torch or a Yog, just to be able to get through Chimeras ;)