Dies to Doom Blade [2, 6, 16, 25 @ Worlds 2022]

This deck is gross.

Glad we have another entry in the "this deck won (or nearly won) - don't play it"

Super well played on the day, I think while this deck is unpleasant, it's super cool to see this engine come together.

Only true heels can play this deck.

Looking forward to playing this at UK nats.

I’ve played IG54, MOHNEH, CTM prison, RP, Gag, PU, etc. Don’t think I ever harangued people to really hurry up, and nowhere close to what I saw being done on stream. Can’t imagine what was occurring off.

What led to the difference seen between this deck and ChiptheRipper deck? I see a lot more big ices and econ cards than the other deck, for example.

Congratulation on making it to the top at World 2022! Cheers!

I LOVE DIVERT POWER

it was so funny hearing rumours about this deck spread as the rounds went on. "be careful—there's a rogue Ag deck out there doing something really fucked up." always good to be the ghost story at world's.

Multiple times on stream (who knows how many times off), pilots of this deck harassed their opponent to hurry up before the opponent was given time to think. In fact, the corp player had spent more time thinking on their turns during the game than the runner had. This is extremely poor sportsmanship and should not be allowed in the game. This should have resulted in a warning and then game loss if continued and I encourage all runners facing decks like these to not be afraid to call the judge if you are being pressured to play quicker.

Agreed--if you feel your opponent is slow-playing in a competitive situation, call a judge. Don't press your opponent. Be a good competitor, there's nothing funny about being a heel.

If someone would pull what happened on stream on me I'd get seriously angry and probably take even longer. Yes my turns will take twice as long as yours, you picked AgInf, not me.

on the stream, it did seem unsportsman like to bring a grindy deck and then rush the runner on a very complicated board state.

If you want to talk about being a villain, a story in two gifs.

This is fine and actually nice allowing to take back the rez. But then later that game:

There's a lot of gesticulation so it's hard to tell, but have you given your opponent time to rez the Hokusai you knew about? It is visible he tried to after you did the successful run triggers, but he also looks confused about it, so I wonder if he was given the window? Maybe a judge could have been called instead of more intense gesturing?

I hope it went down better IRL than it looked on stream.

@percomis I actually feel way better about this situation than about the time (which maybe we will get updated floor rules for). In this situation, I ran HQ, we paused between both ice, I clarified "successful run?" He said yes. I said, "ok, I will do my successful run triggers?" He said yes. I did them, and then he remembered Hok, asked for a takeback, and I said I believed it was not unwindable. There was also a judge present at the table, and bridgeman chose not to call a judge to clarify. Personally, I think in the cut at worlds with so many spectators and a judge present to hear the interaction there is not much to relitigate here. In this case, at the highest levels of play, the rules are extremely clear on how to treat this interaction.

Alright, all good then, like I wrote, it’s hard to know from stream what exactly is being discussed at the table.

I didnt really want to throw more fuel on the fire, but if this type of stuff is to be defended I have to share my two cents.

First off on the details off it, what I remember is I was told in what to me was a pretty agressive manner "you missed it, cmon it´s top four, you missed it".

Secondly I did not ask for takeback. I always intended the rez and was essentially waiting for the opportunity to do it, not realizing ofc that technically if his succesful runs are triggered I do not get to rez.

In my opinion whether I technically missed the rez window here or not is not important, no new info had been revealed. Not allowing it is simply angleshooting, plain and simple.

I think it is a damn shame that this is what some people want top netrunner to look like. One of the things I have always appreciated about netrunner is that people typically dont do this shit to eachother, on the contrary they will help you maintain board state and remind you of even optional triggers at times. That is what sportsmanship looks like.

Unfortunately this was far from the only bad interaction I had in the cut, there was a decent amount of angleshooting, taking your anger/frustration out on your opponent and just bad sportsmanship in general.

A shame to say, I dont want to be negative, the rest of the event was amazing.

I’ll throw in a quick commend about this seeing as it’s being discussed here.

According to the rules, Skry is correct that the timing to rez was technically passed. How strict should we be on timing windows and what impact should the level/stakes of the game have on this strictness? When I play, no matter what level of play or how high stakes the game is, I will always allow any takeback/redo as long as no information of any kind was revealed. This is just what I do and what I think is fair, but it might not align with what NSG or other players want for certain levels of play.

Rezzing Hokusai after successful run triggers is technically a redo but there was no optional trigger or actionable window that occurred in between this time. Boat would have still gotten a counter, dreamnet would have still drawn the same card, and there was no paid ability to draw cards (like having a chart room installed). If a chart room was installed then after a Hokusai rez the runner could choose to use/not use chart. If the dreamnet card was drawn first then it would give information that should not have been available, but this only benefits the runner, so I would still allow a redo in this case. Given the state of the board, the rezzing/not rezzing of the Hokusai results in no change to the actionable information that was available to either player. Unless I’ve missed something, the only reason to not allow the rez then would be from a strict reading of the rules. As I said earlier, the question really is how strict we should be on these timing rules when no new information has been revealed to either player

I've been playing Netrunner tournaments for almost a decade now, and it's that friendly atmosphere I adore so much (my eperience is limited to Europe though). Even at the top tables people are accepting takebacks (if no hidden information is revealed) and actively reminding people of missed triggers. Even during my games in the top 16 of Worlds (the previous one in Europe, 2019), I'm grateful to have experienced such behaviour. I do also play another game called L5R, where such behaviour is sadly less common in international tournaments. I'm not saying that community is bad, it's just that Netrunner has a better one :).

When it comes to 'urging' your opponent to play faster, personally I would only do that once in a game, if I think my opponent is unaware that the game might go to time (or for instance is distracted by something outside the game). If your opponent is deliberately slow-playing, just call a judge (but I have only encountered that once, and even that is a stretch). If my opponent is just a slower player, and I realise that I won't be able to close out the game fast enough, that's my problem and is something I try to keep in mind while deckbuilding (and yes, I've played plenty of prison decks).

Also, there has to be some irony in - on the one hand not allowing such takebacks, while on the other hand 'forcing' your opponent to play faster (increasing the chance that they will forget triggers).

This is an interesting conversation. I feel like there's been a shift in netrunner culture over the years for this type of thing. Thinking back to Magnum Opus (2018), I forgot to rez a known teamspo on the table when scoring 15 Minutes, and I asked for a takeback and got a, "sorry, this is worlds." And that seemed fair (though obviously I was mad at myself for forgetting). Another time that season, I spent two clicks taking credits off liberated, and wanted to change my mind and only spend one click doing so, and my opponent wouldn't allow it. So I was under the impression that top tier events require perfect play, and you gotta live with your mistakes. I wonder if the shift to primarily jnet play has sort of changed how people approach this. In any case, I really don't like that the "takeback or no takeback" decision is left to the player. I think in the future I will always call a judge so that an impartial party is making the decision. Hopefully we can all have a better understanding of expectations for the next big tournament. Because we all just love this game and want to enjoy it together<3

That is a pretty sucky experience, I´m sorry it was like that. In the case of the liberated thing, I´m pretty sure you would be allowed a takeback by the current rules as literally nothing had changed. But in both cases I would argue your opponent had no business being that pedantic.

A recent rules changes to make it so it is no longer on both players to keep game state has made this worse, people are now hoping for you to forget to trigger your DreamNet instead of helping to remind you.

It cant really be argued this stuff makes the game better, it just makes it worse.

Instead of it being two people enjoying the game at a high level, it is two people on edge trying to look for every single angle to gain an undue advantage, I dont want that to be what the game is about.

Oh and I guess the sports case would then also by that logic be an allowed takeback under the current rules I think :)

Reading Osclate’s comment, my experience with Worlds has been similar. I have rarely, if ever, seen take backs allowed in the World’s cut and had assumed that at a premier level tournament it was simply a non starter. Personally, I have tried to be allowing with take backs. There was a streamed continentals game where I allowed the runner to take back face checking an ice they knew from exposing with Deuces Wild. I was told after the fact that was far too generous, which further informed my understanding that high level competitive play would be extremely strict.

My current view of Worlds is that it is meant to be skill testing on many different fronts: understanding the meta, building decks that solve it, and piloting those decks perfectly. It’s an incredibly hard ask, but also why World Champion is such an accomplishment.

After people have played online for so long, take backs seem to have become a bigger part of the game at all levels of play, and that is a rules/OP conversation, and a very different conversation than we are having here.

saying someone adhering to the rules is "angleshooting" seems far-fetched. the several recent revisions to the floor rules are designed to ensure the greatest number of equitable outcomes to ambiguous situations or disagreements, but they only work if both players abide by them. in the dreamnet/hokusai case, once the card has entered the runner's grip, there is no way to rewind unless a judge saw which card was drawn off the dreamnet. i agree with osclate: the best solution is always to call a judge. leaving decisions up to the players is more likely to result in angleshooting or social pressure.

On the list of skills worlds should test why should being pedantic be one of them? All this serves to create is a worse experience where both players have to play more slowly cause they are paranoid of missing out because of some technicality somewhere.

I could have called a judge before the start of the game because of illegal notetaking, but what is the point?

If it is not a significant overstep we lend out opponent a little leniency, it is just common sense. How we choose to play creates the environment we play in, so if you wanna see more of this then sure make excuses for it all day

@groenkaafThat is exactly what angleshooting is, using a technicality in the rules to gain an undue advantage, I dont know what definition you are working with.

It is not like my intentions were unclear, I even rezzed the hokusai earlier in the run thinking the diviner had already been passed as shown above in the gif.

DreamNet is a mandatory trigger so the card would always have been drawn, so I dont see how that matters.

so i'm thinking abt the "undue" part of that. for example, in our cut game, i forgot to rez a rashida until after i had taken my mandatory draw. no card drawn could possibly have affected my decision to rez and fire; unambiguously it was just a lapse of concentration. even so, i didn't ask for the takeback: i made an error resulting in an advantage for my opponent. i don't think it was an undue advantage (not that you needed it anyway).

and you're right abt the last point: i was thinking of the order of the draw and net damage backwards. bit of morning fog. either way, that sort of ambiguity is fertile ground for angleshooting. i trust that you were intending to play fair, but i hope you can see how another less scrupulous player could use these situations to accrue an advantage.

The rashida case is certainly more nuanced because some information was actually gained there, and even if you would always pop regardless I dont necessarily know that. For example you might draw an agenda and want score it with Audacity before drawing more cards, just an example. Also since the rashida is not mandatory I cannot help to remind you of the trigger.

Say you had a pad campaign and rashida and already took money from pad, technically you already passed the rashida window but you gained No new relevant info so in that case I would 100% let you take back

To clarify I meant I didnt know off the rashida so I cant remind you to use her

I just want to say here where the comments were made to end this on a more positive note that me and skry have squashed this beef :)

If I upset anyone I am sorry, as is clear this just got me worked up.

Sorry - this may be very obvious, and I'm just missing something, but why in the write-up do you say to rez the Loki with Divert Power? What is that doing for you besides saving some money potentially? Is it so you can re-rez it to fetch a copy target for Loki?

@Cannister The divert power is to flip the loki if the runner doesn't run the remote, so it can be used with Ag. At least that's my understanding.

Thanks @Utati I did eventually come to understand that after playing the deck a bit.