T'ai Chi Ch'uan

just had a whack with this one on octgn... 18-0 now... :D very good deck

Thank you for your kind words.

Out of pure interest, where is your meta, and what's usually in it?

Took this deck onto octgn and went 6-0. Brilliant.

Our meta is MD. We play a bit of everything here. Sometimes it's something we've been tuning, other time it's the recent hotness.

We're all mad here.

Well I can't wait to shamelessly plagiarise this for a shop tourney on friday, it seems so good. Also @fortunasown spoon kit is best kit :D

What about swapping a utopia shard for a maker's eye or RDI as HQI and siphons seem to apply eniufh pressure on HQ.

I actually can't believe it. I guess I'll have to try it to be convinced ;)

Do you have any playing tips? What about Blue Sun? I suppose it might be the most challenging corp to face, is it not?

Oh, and how the hell do you handle Wraparound?

the guy i was playing was using Elizas Toybox and director Haas to put out TONS of expensive ice. 3 Janus, a couple of Heimdalls. - I dont think Blue Sun will be too much of an issue... I started focussing on R&D with keyhole and got a couple of agendas that way, and when he focussed Ice on R&D i put out some HQ interfaces and then (here comes the science bit) Grapplehook and E3! magic! with clone chips a plenty and inside job, it worked a charm... By the end, it was cheaper to put out utopia shard for 7c, so that i could guarantee hitting all 3 cards in HQ FTW!! good fun!

Having seen each advancement of this deck from the other side of the table I can tell you it is a deeply strategic deck to play. First and formost, much like Kit, if your opponent has not played against her before you will be at an advantage. Her ability changes the dynamic of how you have to ice more substantially than you would think at first glance. For the corp scoring a 3/2 can mean opening up either r&D or HQ to free runs. With Indexing, Keyhole and account Syphon in play one turn of free access can ruin your chances of winning. With Logos in play scoring your first agenda could cost you the game. She plays like a boxer, closer to the long standing Anarc approach. Sometimes jabbing lightly at servers or holding back for the opening that alows a devistating counter attack.

Since this is more of a waiting deck (not rushy like a Gabe deck), why not cut 1 Kati Jones and 1 Mr Li, add 1 Hostage and 1 Express Delivery? This will make drawing the same connection twice almost impossible.

@IonFox I pressure the hand more to keep NBN in it's place (if possible). Mid game, for any corp, is usually when your hand is "best" and losing 2 cards, even by choice, is very bad. Follow the Shard with an HQ run, and often it's game. While I know that's not consistent, no other single card will be, and since I'm already hammering HQ, the Shard drives the nail in further. I'm sure swapping for either of your suggestions would work, and possibly well, but I like the HQ pressure.

@Bananifier Blue Sun sucks for everyone. I worry most about the early nuke threat. Once you can bounce a target or two, though, the pressure is on Blue Sun to win. I'm terrible at giving strategy tips. One thing I can say for sure is that you honestly would like to leave R&D alone until you're ready. If they score an agenda bounce the ice there, and if they were foolish enough to leave a single piece, Indexing probably wins you the game or gets close. The big thing about this deck is that you're rarely stymied by 2 ice. Wraparound just sucks, but it cannot be everywhere. Early HQ pressure will see them drop one on HQ, perhaps even Archives, though likely a remote (unless they get 3). No matter where they go I'm likely to go elsewhere, all the time squirreling credits away on the ACs and Kati to make a big run straight up if I have to.

@ZiNOS It's not really a waiting deck. In fact, even with Logos in play, I really don't want to see them score first. If they do? Awesome. I go get the exact thing I need. Otherwise I start hammering HQ, taking their focus off of suring up remotes and R&D. While Mr Li and Kati aren't pivotal enough to have 3 each, 2 each ensures I can draw them naturally. I'm not looking to fetch them, and spending an extra click with hostage just won't do IMHO. I'd also mention that after I fetch Mr Li or Kati then I have to dig for the other. Unless I'm completely lucky I'll need both eventually, so I like 2 each now. I used to run 2 EDs but they run counter to what I like about Mr Li; sometimes you have tough choices, but most often I'm burying what I do not need, like extra copies of Logos etc. A Logos pull already shuffles things up again, and adding more of that disturbs the flow too much. You want to know what is left, and each shuffle takes the bottom of the deck you've set away, and the knowledge. (I hope that last bit made sense).

@Bananifier Oh, and one more thing on Blue Sun: Unscheduled Maintenance.It hurts every corp, but Blue Sun likes it even less. HB glaciers loathe it as well. Obvious stuff perhaps, but as close as I've been to taking it out a couple times I've seen it too effective. It's also nice in case someone wants to get tricksy with their own current.

Awesome, I actually have a similar Leela deck, but I use ProCo + Aesops for economy and more standard breakers. So actually kind of different but seems built around the same ideas. I absolutely love Utopia Shard in it. Will have to try some of this version.

Wraparound really makes Overmind sad...

@RumpleForeskin Meh, not so much. It only costs 2 more than with Corroder, so it's not a huge jump. Besides, I hit so many angles, and have enough encon, that it's a speed bump.

aaannndd that's what I get for posting while I'm at work. :)

Regardless, I stand by it: You're not going to pound at a Wraparound protected server over and over. You'll pick your spot and make a good run now and again. Given that I'm hitting other angles they'll have to make some harder decisions about placing them.

I never run often enough for a card like Wraparound, or for that matter Swordsman, to affect the overall game plan.

I'd also point out that they hopefully didn't install that Wraparound as the outermost ice. Wraparound hates Inside Job. :)

All told worst case scenario is 2 wraparound on R&D. And with only 3 to play with if that is the only stumbling block I think you can live with it. That's still not saying much, this deck gets a lot of value out of R&D runs. 2 Outside HQ would be annoying, but not insurmountable. Consider, they have to be playing it, have to get it, have to install it in the right spot and get it rezzed to be a threat at all. And even then the "shut down" doesn't come till the second copy comes out. Is it bad for you? Yes, but so is an early rezzed IQ out of cerbral imaging and I've seen this deck walk through that.

netrunnerdb.com

Yeah, not having an answer to one of the more common ICE seems like an oversight. Swordsman would also ruin your day, but at the moment it's rare. I'm a little concerned about your economy, too; as a STR 0 breaker, you always need a hell of a lot to pump Overmind. A single Eli 1.0, which is another very common ICE, would take 5 to break with e3 Feedback Implants.

Also @Dydra, why write like that? It's perfectly possible to disagree with someone without coming across as a complete prat.

Calm down, @Dydra.

@Jashay like many, the main corp I play competitively is NBN. I have certainly not forgotten Wraparound. I've been up against it, and while it's not easy, I generate enough economy to compensate with well timed runs. As for Eli 1.0 you can click to break the first sub, then play 1 credit for the other from E3. Bioroids hate E3.

I've even been up against Cerebral Imaging: Infinite Frontiers recently, with both IQ and Ashigaru. Ashigaru was on R&D while IQ was on HQ; so some serious speed bumps to be sure. I'm not saying situations like that are easy, or don't slow me down, but it usually means I start attacking the next vulnerable server, or look to set up Indexing.

@Dydra, your comment reveals two things:

1. You didn't read the rest of this thread, where @locusshifter stated his meta is MD.

2. You have no idea how good the Maryland meta is. I live within a few hours and have played several tournaments and premier events against those guys, they're some of the best. Every game I've played against a MD Netrunner is burned into my mind due to the sheer force of how awesome the game was. To describe that meta as "very competitive" as he did is quite accurate.

Now a more on-topic comment:

I've been playing Leela with pretty standard breaker suite. With only 2x Mr. Li and 3x breakers (not including the very valuable Grappling Hook), what kind of approach do you take early game to ensure a consistently threatening board state? Do you sit back and dig for a while? Sneakdoor Beta and Inside Job can certainly provide some early pressure, but I have trouble seeing how you achieve the consistency that you obviously have. Do you mulligan often?

@invictus_blue I don't think I mulligan much more than what I'd consider normal.

OM and E3 early, along with a IJ usually puts serious pressure on the corp, and depending on the matchup, I will try to mulligan for some of the pieces. I try not to drop the Hooks or Sneakdoor until I need them, just to keep the runner in the dark.

The primary goal is to pressure HQ early and often, while occasionally running on Jackson or other econ pieces I can trash/force them to trash. Even if you know I'm trying to set up the Index that means you divert ice away from Archives, HQ, and remotes and I bounce the unrezzed ice in one of those locations when Agendas are scored/stolen. If they do not sure up R&D that's where I bounce the ice. I find that unless you're running glacier, there's just not enough ice to go around. Add Unscheduled Maintenance into the mix, and things get tough for the corp.

A lot of this deck is choosing the right ice to bounce to create run opportunities. Another big portion is the disruption of UM, AS, and the looming threat of IJ once they know I have it and can SOT it. Suddenly 3 ice deep doesn't even seem good enough.

overmind with keyhole\sneakdoor and only (max) 5 MU. Maybe you're the strongest player in MD winning by this. The deck is awesome, except the breaker suite.

@SlayerCNV From the sounds of it, he likely never has both Keyhole & Sneakdoor installed at once. When he needs to install one, he trashes the other if it is installed. Also, he only installs the Grappling Hooks when he is going to use them. And if he is installing Overmind, and feels like he desperately needs those 2 extra power counters, he can trash the offending MU sink and then Clone Chip it back in. As has been mentioned, piloting this deck is all about working with what you have at the moment, and just taking advantage of which openings are presented. You have to have a flexible attitude when playing with this deck.

Well said @xarlstaunzund.

You got @Dydra 'ed

I have a deck in the top 5 hall of fame, but one of the first comments was filled with all-caps shenanigans by none other than the one and only Dydra. It basically means: You've made it. Your exploits have allowed you to gain the attention of the one and only troll of ages. Take pride in it- you've done well, son.

I played this deck on our local training session yesterday (4W-4L). First it's amazingly fun and i'm now looking forward to play with this ID. The first games were a blast, my opponents didn't seems knowing what to do (fast ad agendas and let me bounce an ICE following by AS/Indexing/Sneakdoor). I won those games without installing any breakers. After 4W they tried another approach : they simply didn't try to score. They iced all centrals (and eventually a remote) three ICE deep, drawing for ICE with Jackson (reshuffling agendas into R&D), rezzing everything they could to keep me from bouncing them. I simply didn't have enough token on OM to make 2 runs (Grappling Hook is amazing with e3 but can't do shit against one sub ICE) with 4 tokens on them. I was able to grab some points when they were filling the gaps but it wasn't enough. I feel that i could've won with more traditionals breakers (+ Grappling He3k, i'm in love with it now) and/or a combo Indexing + TME. I wonder if you could help me with this case (all centrals iced deep before scoring) ? Anyway, props to you for the deck it's really fun. :)

First of all: congrats to that build! I guess it's one of those that looks janky at first, but apparently it can really punish the Corp - which, in the current meta, is really awesome.

However, I ask myself how much of that is due to Leela rather than this specific build. I play Leela myself and, even though far away from 17-0, have good success with her. For comparison: I run 2x Corroder, 2x Mimic, 1 Crypsis, 1 Femme, 2x Zu.13 and 2x Datasucker, no other programs. That's 10 cards, compared with 10 here as well (excluding Sneakdoor and Keyhole). I'm pretty sure, that my breaker suite is more powerful, but at the cost of a lot of influence, that you are able to use elsewhere (I only play 1 indexing for that reason).

What @MrMint wrote is something, I see as well. People just ICE up every central with 2 or 3 pieces of ICE and they don't care which one is popped by Leela. And then they score Astros and the game is more or less over. So for me personally, I came to the conclusion that Leela should run. She has the typical criminal tools that allow early scores. Inside Job, Siphon and run on servers, where the ICE can't get rezzed, Legwork.

Anyway: Great deck!

Lmao @ItJustGotRielle!!!

It's sooooo true...

Great deck @locusshifter I literally live for flexible, out of the box breaker ideas like this... Can't wait to play it!

Out of curiosity, why the name? You obviously must know something about, if you're using that transcription, but I was curious as to why you've decided to name this deck this way?

(for those who don't know: T'ai Chi Ch'uan or tàijíquán is chinese martial art (among other things))

@MrMint What ID and/or archetype were you up against? To answer your question, however, I have been up against 3 deep ice all the way across. For me, that's when I start Indexing runs. If they score, you bounce an (hopefully) unrezzed ice from R&D to reduce the cost, then make the double run. Unfortunately, when it's at that point, things become a bit more traditional. It can happen late game against many archetypes, but if you have the tools in play, and in hand, you should be able to hit R&D, or HQ, and snag agendas.

I think more time and practice will help, and I mean that sincerely. Before I used this breaker style in Leela, I used it in a Tenma build for a while back when H&P came out, so I've had a ton of time with it against glacier play.

Thank you all for the kind words.

What I've noticed, playing on the other side is the need for flexibility, and the emphasis on where you run and when being paramount. Holding back too much, or too little can hurt a lot. Finding that line is hard. Also don't be precious with your tricks. With E3 you need one overmind token per piece of ice, if trashing keyhole or Sneakdoor gets you there, that's what you do. Knowing what to grab with logos is important too. I've seen him ignore his "power cards" to grab an odd piece that makes what you've done irrelevant.

Weird case: I run a massive HB Glacier deck with architects and toy box. I got either 4 or 5 ice on R&D, have much of it rezzed. So he drains a high stacked kati and he indexes, and I Rez everything. One of them is an Architect which he lets fire, 2 agendas in those 5 both 3 point game winners. I add another piece of ice to the outside and he gets through. I think he had one token left on overmind at the end. Anyway, next click is inside job. That new ice I installed is meaningless. He uses last click +e3 through an Ichi, installs a fresh overmind mid run with clone chip, breaks everything and wins the game.

Would a 1-of Scrubber do this deck justice, I wonder?

Seeing has you have 2x2MU programs, not to mention Overmind, do you think Box-E might be better than Logos here?

@esutter479 I wouldn't want to have to fetch the singleton of it with Logos so I wouldn't include it personally.

@Kroen I never have Keyhole and Sneakdoor Beta installed at the same time. I only fetch the most advantageous at the time, though I have switched from one to another before.

Still, Box-E also helps Overmind. But yeah, with singletons of Keyhone and Sneakdoor then Logos is probably better.

Hm, no Corroder or Mimic? What's your plan for the anti-AI cards? It sounds like you've tested the deck a lot, so what is a match-up like against those cards? With Eater coming out, I wouldn't be surprised if swordsman sees more play.

As the currant cardpool stands, only swordsman is a threat, and there are two key things that keep swordsman from being a serious threat. The first is that it doesn't end the run this means it has to be outside to be a threat. Inside job means that it needs to be inside to maintain its threat. That makes positioning it against a deck that can bounce ice very hard. Second, swordsman can only protect 3 servers, and then only if someone is running 3. And then only if they draw all 3. Where do you put it against a deck that can threaten every server? Even with Atman, Overmind, Knight and soon eater floating arround decks don't seem to find space for swordsman. It dies to paracite which is everywhere. It is not taxing against anyone without an AI breaker. And it is cheap to break even if they are. Assuming you were fast advance with all 3 copies of swordsman in your deck, in play and rezzed on centrals, in between an outer Ice and an end the run, yes you would win. So I would say this deck dies to foundry fast advance with theee swordsman. I don't consider that a weakness.

And that was me forgetting it can be grappling hooked.

I don't actually agree with a lot of that. Just because it doesn't have an etr, doesnt mean it's not a threat. And even if you inside job it, it still exists on the table, and it will likely have to be dealt with. If putting a swordsman over HQ loosens all HQ pressure in a deck that runs HQ Interface, Siphon, Shutdown, then that is a big deal, and is definitely exploitable. Isn't Leelas strength that you have to properly defend all centrals? If you can mitigate that with a swordman, it was damn worth the 3 credit rez cost.

Secondly, since we are discussing this particular deck, parasite isn't an issue. So swordman isn't getting insta-killed here. Even if parasite Datasucker was included, ITD will save it for at least that turn, so it can fire.

I came off far doucher than I intended sorry about that. What I'm getting at is likelyhood of threat, to potential of that threat to make a game unwinable. Swordsman will pop up, for the reasons you mention. But the card's overall strength makes the likelyhood of seeing it everywhere fairly low. For the reasons I mentioned it is a hard sell even to Jinteki. To shut this deck out of HQ you have to close down archives too, and even then a grappling hook can land a AS. But that leaves r&D wide open to Keyhole. As I said to make the game unwinable the corp needs you totally shut out of all of the servers and while swordsman could dramatically weaken the you, they can't shut you out enough to be completely safe.

No worries. I don't think swordman will ever be everywhere, but I think if that 1 extra influence was put towards a mimic, then those random games that they pop up will be a lot more manageable. Swordman certainly has its downsides, it's not the cleanest of silver bullets, but a well timed swordsman can really help

Leela with Unscheduled Maintenance is SUPER HARSH. I was curiously if 2 Clone Chips is really enough? I feel like they could easily get hosed by Power Shutdown.

Played it and love it, I'm prob taking this to store champs

So I generally feel that unused influence is a mistake, especially now that there are so many awesome 1-influence cards to choose from. That being said, why no Hades Shard? I feel one influence and one card slot for a card that will just win you games sometimes is not too shabby.

Silly question--have you considered Running Interference? I've found it works a lot harder than it might seem. I watched a corp spend 10 rezzing two ice against the card.

What does turn 1 look like for you? I've had difficulty pacing myself as Leela in the past.

Leela loves Kraken

I was wonderong if you could share some matchup specific advice, as well as what to look out for in our opening hands.

@pants on head It's a question of what I would take out. The most logical choice would be to drop a ES for one, however 3 ES means I always have one floating around in case I need one, such as in the case of a Wotan I derezed yesterday. :)

@Thaarl I've used that card in older builds, and like it, but it can be difficult to time. Often in this build I find my self using all 4 clicks, denying myself the chance to play an ES, so I think it would be more difficult to pull those off. Besides, what would I take out to fit in a couple copies? (as I think you'd want more than one to seriously try and use it)

@IonFox I've found myself acting pretty much the same for almost any matchup. I'll mulligan for econ unless my opening hand has a good mix, but otherwise I generally dig. Really, you'd like to have econ and an early breaker, or at least an IJ in your opening. Pushing the early threat to try and take them off their game is the way to go; those early threats with a touch of econ are a great way to start pressuring FA. Also, against glacier, you really want to try and see UM even if they ice R&D and HQ first turn.

A key thing for me has been to ignore the server I want to attack. With tools for the other job in hand I slowly introduce them, trying not to look too capable, then when I'm ready I drop the bomb and start the assault.

I hope some of that was useful. I'm not terribly great at articulating my strategies. :)

The opening hand description was great thanks! :D

However, I'm not to sure if I get the second part. Do you mean to say that you'll just run a few times in order to make it look like you want to poke around but are unable to do so (giving an illusion of weakness and also not allowing them to rez too much ice)? And then hitting them when they try to score out or by hamerring their hand in the mid game?

Or do you just look for early game openings and exploit them, like using keyhole ASAP if their R&D is very lightly iced?

@IonFox The second thing. I look for an early opening trying to force them to sure things up, digging for the other way in as it were. When they do I change directions.

So the moment they secure one server you simply find another point of entry and apply pressure. Sounds fun. Hopefully I can understand how to play this deck as it requires good decision making skills and reading your opponent's moves. Thanks for the advice.

@IonFox Exactly. This deck really needs practice to develop the instincts. I'm glad I can help.

would inject help in this deck?

What changes would this deck see when O&C comes out, in order to handle the new weyland cards. Or do you feel that it is fine as is?

@fiveplus5is55 I would have to potentially discard programs, which are precious. Add that Inject is 2 Inf, and I don't see how it could be fit into the build.

@IonFox So far I'm not planning on any changes. I think most of what I will need is just practice against the new builds. I suspect that most builds will be quite similar to existing archetypes, so I'm hoping I'm ok.

I read everything in here what the fuck.

And now you leave a better runner, touched by the awesome brilliance known only as locusshifter, and all who commented to enhance this fabulous deck (except maybe dydra).

I've played this deck for about 10 games now and I've mainly specialized in playing Leela for the past few months.

I have to say this deck seems awkward.

Against FA decks, I feel that if I don't get Logos, Overmind or Inside Job in my starting hand I am going to lose tempo catching up. If corp manages to score (esp. NEH) first agenda and there are 2 layers of ice on either R&D or HQ, then kicking back 1 ICE back to hand doesn't greatly help.

Against slower decks, which usually just set up 1 remote and ICE up heavily, the game becomes more of a who becomes richer. By the time I have the rig set up (1st Overmind with 4 counters if Logos is installed, Grappling Hook installed and one in Heap, then 1 Clone Chip) I risk losing everything if I make a run on remote and it turns out to be a bait. I've just wasted very valuable resources.

This deck is fragile and also very slow. It's great to use against people who still can't figure Leela by that spending theyre whole turn to advance-score an agenda. That leaves them vulnerable. But against smarter opponents, who actually get left with 1 click to re-install the returned card - this becomes problematic.

It's just a risky deck, I would never take it to a serious tournament, old vets playing PPVP Kate or Andy will have better chance to win than me.

The only way to make this deck work is to apply early pressure on central servers, make corp lose credits by rezzing ice and with a leftover click use Kati or Armitage, just to slowly gain those credits. I am thinking of getting Earthrise Hotel and lose some other card, because drawing becomes really important mid-game, when you're digging for you're icebreakers.

A total fluke let me TAKE THIS DOWN yesterday! CI for the WIN!

I actually love playing Leela with my CI deck. I don't have any assets or upgrades, very little ICE (so what I have is already rezzed for the most part), and never score more than one agenda per turn, so she's basically a blank runner ID against my deck.

I had the opposite setup, @pants on head. I had STACKS of ice, but the stacks helped keep my assets and agendas safe despite any bounces. At one point, R&D was wide open, but it wasn't enough for Leela to work her magic.

@locusshifter, do you think taking out 1 indexing for an Eater could make breaking repeatedly through taxing ice easier, since you wouldn't have to be as careful with Overmind counters?

Tried this deck today 1-1 vs NEH Butcher Shop

I really struggled using this vs NEH Butcher shop - the low volume of breakers seemed to promote variance i.e. I was much more exposed to the mercy of the draw. If I was lucky I pulled #Overmind #Logos or Mr. Li relatively early. The absence of a fracter really scuppered me when the corp pulled Wraparound.

As a total newbie, I just copied your deck 100% and played my first NetRunner game. Even though I have little idea of how to play, I almost made it. This deck is great !!!