Builder of Tempo

Saan 3073

A lot of people are building this ID with the intention of dealing just tons of meat damage to the runner through the use of The Cleaners and huge space ICE. The large setup time of scoring 5/3s and spending entire turns advancing ICE makes me think that this plan is too slow to work the vast majority of the time against a fairly competent runner, and probably ends up being too expensive a strategy to win a trace on HHN or SEA or whatever your eventual kill plan is. It's fun when it works, but I'm betting it doesn't work as often as advertised.

The difficulty in this ID is making the ID power relevant, since the runner chooses when they're going to run and take the damage. Also, how do you capitalize off of 1 meat damage? What does that even do other than mildly inconvenience the runner? Also, a 44 card deck size seems to emphasize a rush strategy, but advancing ICE is a very slow action. What gives?

This deck is built with the idea of taking that small tempo gain of pinging the runner's hand and running with it. It looks a lot like Supermodernism, because at it's heart, that's what it is. You use the looming threat of death to bully the runner while you quickly try and score out. Prisec adds additional hand tax at a low cost and throws a tag into the mix for funsies. Snare! does the same at higher values. 3 Snares in a 44 card deck means it gets seen quite often.

I'm not going overboard with the advanceable ICE, because once you have one over your relevant servers you're good to go. This is usually 2-4 ICE total, depending on the matchup, so the rest can just be reasonably costed gearchecks. We're not out to rez huge ICE, because if we're poor we can't threaten a trace. We just want to tell the runner to stuff themselves a couple times while we get points out.

While we're talking about advancing ICE, there's no slower move in a rushy tempo game than advancing ICE the hard way. It loses you a click, and it loses you money. I usually equate advancing ICE with losing 2 credits: the credit you spent, and the credit you didn't gain from clicking for a credit instead. With the current ICE pool for Weyland, advancing ICE a single time is usually almost a complete waste (since the effect is usually incredibly weak), and advancing more than once is too slow and expensive to ever consider. For this reason, I usually try not to advance ICE unless I can do it with Shipment from Kaguya. I will if I have a free click and really need to disincentivize/punish the runner from running a server, but I really, really hate doing it. If I only have one target for ICE, installing an agenda and using Shipment on the ICE and the agenda is fine, just so long as I don't have to ever advance the ICE manually.

I'm on the SEA Source plan rather than HHN with this deck, because with all the damage flying around the runner can often end their turn on less than 4 cards in hand. If I HHN, the runner can either clear tags and live, or draw up if they can't drop tags, making me need 2 Scorches to win and negating the advantage I had. SEA lets me kill with just 1 Scorch in this situation, allowing me to use my ID power to it's fullest.

I like using an advanceable trap in rush decks sometimes because it can let me win games that otherwise might not be great for me. Junebug fits nicely with the BoN damage, boosting it to 5 from an IAA, and 6 with a Prisec.

Taking a page from Seamus, I threw in a Casting Call as a way to create a scoring window when you might otherwise not have one. An good time is when the runner needs to draw up a little before running, or ends their turn low on credits; ideally they won't have enough clicks to clear the tags and do everything else they need to do as well. Often they'll just give the agenda to you. It can also be used if you have 2 agendas in hand and want to create a scoring window for one. If you Casting Call one of the agendas at a good time and the runner takes it, it should open a window for the second (and hopefully more important) one. If not, you just got an agenda, so why complain? Sadly, the card is completely dead if the runner is on 5-6 points, but I'm super glad to see it at any other point.

That's a lot of words about a pretty straightforward deck, but I felt the need to explain the decisions I've made in terms of utilizing the ID. It's not cool and flashy; it just tries to be efficient and proactive about pushing out agendas, using the ID power as a tool and not the entire game plan.

23 comments
17 Aug 2016 moistloaf

Same spirit as my own experiments. Tempo is the only way to go with this ID IMO, although a scored Cleaners wth this ID must feel great. I am on a ToL instead of Casting and Junebug, but am considering switching to AggSec. I like my Wormhole but overall glad to see someone putting in serious testing with BoN. #TeamNoJackson ps — I am running 1 Power Shutdown. I think it has a lot of value

18 Aug 2016 Saan

I was really thinking about a ToL. Getting that last agenda can be a bitch sometimes, but I also basically never advance ICE more than once, and it also only works with Atlas. ¯\(ツ)/¯ #WeylandProblems

I do like the idea of a Power Shutdown, but I don't know what I'd cut to make room for it. It feels like every time I need to make room, either ICE or money leaves, and that's a bad thing =P

18 Aug 2016 Eji1700

It's a little gimmicky, but I was testing a dedication ceremony + commercialization build, with the idea that you just overpump one ice and then wind up with some crazy econ in the late game by recycling with shard or jackson.

Probably doesn't work, but dedication + tol seemed legit, especially getting ice walls and sahdows to 4 in one click. Then you need 3-4 slots though : (

18 Aug 2016 Krasty

Can I humbly ask wtf is ToL, please? :)

Pretty nice deck btw! Now I am trying to make deck with this ID and exactly same result I made up. You need have tempo like you run out of devil! For me I will make some changes -> couple of different ICE's (to much Quandary I think), than -1 Casting Call (I just don't know how to play it, that`s all..), +1 Targeted Marketing and somewhere spend one influence (maybe one Wraparound...

18 Aug 2016 Krasty

ach .. ToL = Trick of Light I think... uff :)

18 Aug 2016 WayneMcPain

This looks almost exactly like the list I've been using. I only have 2 Snare and a second Casting Call though. I figured with Snares, Prisec, advancing ICE and generally low amount of economy, another 0 cost power card like Casting Call is favorable over a 3rd Snare, especially in a 44 card deck. Your thoughts?

It looks really good though. It's funny how it can look so similar to an Argus rush deck but feel completely different to play with and against. I think BoN is going to be a force to be reckoned with.

19 Aug 2016 Boogie

In a kinda gimmicky deck like this, why not maximize the power? Prisec, snare, and sea give tags out, why not use exchange of information? Run a bunch of the cleaners, and punitive counterstrike instead (or in addition to) scorch? Trade for hostiles or whatever you have ( maybe chronos?) and just deal a ton of damage having them access. Probably gotta cut casting call and junebug, long with with the food, but taking a cleaners is most likely game, unless they run like 3 plascrete.

19 Aug 2016 moistloaf

@Boogie what do you mean gimmicky? I don't see any gimmicks here, maybe the Casting Call but it still serves the simple premise of the deck: score agendas fast

19 Aug 2016 Saan

@BoogieIt seems kinda like you want to take what is a working concept and make it into a gimmicky deck. Punitive isn't a good win condition since you have to be able to land 2 of them if they steal a 3 pointer in most scenarios, and scoring one usually means you lose the game because you scored a 5/3 in a non-glacier deck. I'm sure it feels great to make the ID ability do 2 points of damage, but it takes so much money that you can't really protect anything any more.

So here, I basically built the deck you're talking about just so we could take a look at it and see why it's kinda bad. Mind you, I honestly tried to make it the best version I could of that deck and still fit in all the cards we're talking about here.

First of all, this deck doesn't really have money to win a trace with both 5/3s and no Oaktown Grid. You could do Oaktown instead, but then you lose the extra consistency Project Atlas adds, so you're still kinda screwed either way.

I added 2x SEA Source in order to actually see it for the combo with Exchange of Information, which meant that we also needed 2x Exchange for the same reason, which means that we also had to drop to 2 Snare!s, because 12 influence is crippling.

So now we have a really cool, flashy looking deck with neato cards that will never be played. Occasionally we get to score a Cleaners and make our ID ability really good, but if we do that we basically forfeit our ability to ever win a trace again, because we had to score and defend a 5/3. Our entire economy package is 3x Hedge and 3x Beanstalk, propped up by 3 Hostile Takeovers which usually give the runner more money over the course of a game than they give us. Snare and Prisec are still cool, but paying 4 to a Snare can be crippling to us with how little money there is; you can just barely pay for Snare in the good version of the deck; in this one it's almost impossible. Punitive will never win a game against a good runner because a good runner won't end their turn with less cards than a Punitive hits for, and you will almost never get 2 of them off (if you're lucky enough to have 2 in your hand anyhow).

SEA Exchange is another combo that might get you the cleaners but also probably loses you the game. You're now doing 2 meat damage with Prisec and your ID, but you won't have money ever again because you had to win a trace to get that Cleaners. If this brings you up to 7 points then Yay! You've won. But what the hell are we doing playing The Cleaners if all it's good for is exchanging to 7? At that point Food is miles better because it doesn't outright lose you the game due to being worth 3 points to the runner.

So what I'm saying is that it takes a quick deck that aims to score ASAP and utilizing tempo to get and stay ahead of the runner and bogs it down with slow, cumbersome cards. Eventually, the deck runs out of money and you can't keep the runner out because your ICE is really, really bad late game, but you can't afford to play better ICE because, you know... money.

Mind you, I'm not saying this version of the deck can't win games. There's ways to punish people for making bad runs, which is what Weyland has always been good at. It's also possible it might win a game or two from good players, because hey, variance exists. What I am saying is that it's going to lose far more often than it wins, and that most of the cards will sit there looking silly.

19 Aug 2016 WayneMcPain

@Saan to be fair, I think there are much better ways to build the deck @Boogie is trying to build. For instance, you said all your influence is tied up in SEA Source and Exchange of Information, but Consulting Visit is a thing and it could save influence on both those cards, and not require you to have 2 Punitive Counterstrike in hand. Media Blitz can turn on The Cleaners without having to score it, which means you can run 2 instead of 3 and fit in an Oaktown Renovation and maybe a Gila Hands Arcology or something. Money is still an issue, but maybe cutting a couple ice for Melange Mining Corp. could help.

Ulkrond has been working on a deck that utilizes some of these concepts. It seems like it could work. I don't know if it is as viable as a classic Supermodernism build, but it might be something worth looking into.

In any case, I think once you go down that route, you are no longer building the same deck, so I don't think any of those changes are valid here. But what @Boogie was suggesting isn't completely gimmicky, IMO.

19 Aug 2016 Boogie

Thanks Wayne! And to clarify, I wasnt necessarily labeling your take as gimmicky, more the identity in general. Weyland plays rush the best, but in order to capitalize on the ability, you have to spends clicks and money advancing sub-par ice. Shipment certainly helps, but that's another piece that just shores up a weakness, it isn't necessarily a power play.

On top of that, the runner can always pick when to run, which means they can just draw up, and then not really take all that much damage. Its not that I want to rely on the cleaners, it just seems like the best way to make the damage matter more. The punitive idea was just a quick idea I had to free up influence. Scorch is probably better.

19 Aug 2016 WayneMcPain

@Boogie I'm not sure if you've played with or against this ID much, but a single meat damage is actually a lot more inpactful that you would think it would be. Especially in a deck that's running Snares and Prisec, sometimes DRT, Casting Call and threatening the kill all while scoring fast. All these little things add up and overclock the Weyland rush game plan. It's a lot better in practice than it looks on paper.

Yes, Shipment is shoring up against the decks weakness. I think it will be less of a big deal whenever Weyland (hopefully) gets some more impactful advancable ICE in this cycle. Mausolus is going to be nuts in this deck.

If you haven't already, give this list a try and see how it feels. It's surprisingly easy to get "set up" and requires a lot less tricks up its sleeve to make use of the ID that it seems.

20 Aug 2016 Saan

Okay, I can see what you're talking about. I agree that Consulting would be key in that deck, mainly as a way to shore up the really unfortunate 12 influence. I do agree that it's a very different deck. I've seen Ulkrond's deck and I honestly wasn't too impressed; it seemed like it was aiming for a unicorn scenario as it's win condition. That being said, I haven't actually played it myself, and it might be stronger than I'm giving it credit for. Regardless, it's a very different deck than what I'm going for here.

Overall, I do kinda think the ID power is far and away the worst of the new corp IDs. Hopefully the rest of the Weyland cards this cycle will be more like Mausolus and less like C.I. Fund, and we can make a decent deck outa this ID that's more than just another rush deck =)

20 Aug 2016 Boogie

Ok, so maybe I'm slow to the party, but were you guys aware that satellite grid makes all ice do damage? Is this something that is playable? It is a click and a credit, like regular advancing, but works on all the ice on the server. And also on non-advancable ice, which means wendigo could be replaced by an enigma or cobra, maybe. I don't know, just spit balling.

20 Aug 2016 Saan

Yeah, it's a thing. Mostly I didn't include it because of deck space. There's nothing I'd want to take out over it, since it only works on one server. Also, usually it would just be useful for one meat damage only, since the runner will usually just trash it when they decide to run. At that point I'd need to advance my ICE anyhow, so I don't think it's worth a card slot.

20 Aug 2016 Saan

I'd love to replace Wendigo, though =P As soon as Mausolus is out, it's gone, gone, gone.

20 Aug 2016 Snake Eyes

Zero Jackson Howards.

20 Aug 2016 Saan

Yup! Haven't felt like I needed him yet, so I'm trying that Jackson-less life. Maybe he'll go back in, but he'll probably just be recycling shares and money.

21 Aug 2016 bubbathegoat

Recycling Snare! and Prisec is excellent value though, and saving you from the occasional agenda flood is good too, but overall I agree that in fast-moving rush decks Jackson Howard is less important than he is in slower-moving builds.

I completely agree with @Saan that the occasional 1-off meat damage is much more dangerous than many initially expect it to be, and is only more effective in a rush deck. Many criminals have no recursion for their breakers, and even anarchs are running on reduced recursion under MWL2, this means losing a breaker out of hand can be very damaging to these runners. There are also key resources like Temüjin Contract that tend to stick in the runner's grip for a while that they may not want to lose, which again makes the meat damage more potent. If the runner has to install these cards first, then they lose tempo and the corp can score fast.

I think the biggest risk is a runner getting set up, and their cards become essentially hit points that they can lose without much concern. At this point the BoN ID ability is much less effective, but a fast build can hopefully have won, or at least forced game-point to force the runner's hand into tags, an advanced trap, or opening up a SEA trace.

I haven't played Weyland in a while, but this looks like exactly the style of deck I am looking for to get back into it. Thanks for posting your list!

22 Aug 2016 Exo

On 5 games I lost 2 of them because of agenda flood. No Jackson, never again.

24 Aug 2016 nungunz

I've had some trouble with speed on this deck actually.

Any room for Anonymous Tip? Junebug (I prefer AgSec) is good, but I almost want the card draw instead

24 Aug 2016 Voodoofly

I've had some success online and at our last local game with this deck and a couple modifications. Dropped the Windingo for another changling as a four strength senty has been more useful for me. Also swapped 1x Jackson for the Junebug but that is just personal preference - you can still bluff the no-advance in a remote and recycling Prisecs and Snares has been very useful.

Deck is worth it just to play Casting Call on an Oaktown with a Prisec or two in the same remote, then sit back and sip a beer while you watch your opponent squirm across the table.

3 Sep 2016 Saan

@ExoThe key is to score them, not try and horde them ;)