Indomitable

I'd been seeing Mushin No Shin in a couple Blue Sun decks lately, but was confused as to the purpose (Crisium Grid + Off the Grid just makes sense). It's not my kind of Weyland, but I definitely like the concept.

I wonder if this deck would be better or worse with Government Takeover. It would free up a deck slot, at the very least.

Interesting deck, a few questions:

1) Have the you found the Paywell implementation is really worth it? Seems like a restructure would net you more credits more consistently. I'd understand if there were good runner currents to dispel but otherwise don't really get it.

2) Ice seems a bit low for a glacier deck (although it's really big on average), what do you find is your typical ice configuration in mid/late game when you're trying to win? 10 of which don't seem that rezzable in early game and 2 of them are unique so really only 14 ice total.

3) How do you find PC's in use? I've found it underwhelming for sure when compared to adonis, Maybe 2 more transactional money cards? Or 1 swap out? Just a thought.

Thanks for posting, just some questions I had when reading your excellent write-up describing the deck.

Hey guys, thanks for checking out the deck and taking the time to comment!

@Shishu I like playing blow their face up Weyland too :) That's one of the best things about Blue Sun though is so much is possible out of the ID and the Runner must respect it all. Whenever my opponent installs their Plascrete I frown and inwardly celebrate the tempo I just gained on them.

@sruman great questions, will do my best to answer these. 1) Paywall Implementation is one of the cards that has been in and out of the deck. I just end up playing so many criminals that are doing 1+ successful runs on every single turn for their Desperados, Security Testings, Datasuckers, etc. and in that situation the card really shines. With my Ice set I can't prevent that run based economy till well into the midgame, but it's great to piggyback off of it. In other matchups it isn't as good, and there are definitely times a Restructure would be preferable, that certainly seems a reasonable sub to make anyhow.

2) It is a bit of a low count, but I believe it works out once you realize that apart from 1 or 2 on Archives and sometimes 1 in a remote, every piece goes to HQ and R&D. If you'll believe it the last tournament I actually had 1 less piece of Ice; this exact set minus the Engima. A typical mid/late Ice setup could be something like Archives: Excalibur (Unrezzed), Hadrian's Wall (Unrezzed) R&D: Archer (Unrezzed), Tollbooth, Curtain Wall HQ: Hadrian's Wall, Archer, Curtain Wall

3) Private Contracts is actually amazing in this deck. I was initially surprised how much so. Since almost all I do in the early game is install Ice and the occasional Asset and gain money, the click intensive nature of PC isn't an issue. Getting a PC going in the early game is huge for doubling the gains from the clicking for credits you would be doing anyways. Some of my hardest games are when the runner is quick to trash PC, but it's nice that doing so is costly for them. It does of course become pretty redundant if I score a Government Contracts... but in that case I've already moved past the most important window of its usefulness.

Good point about how it's more important to have more copies of Crisium Grid than Off the Grid. How are you thinking of adjusting once Order and Chaos comes out?

Good question. I think I would at-least try out High-Risk Investment over Government Contracts. Later in the game the Runner often stockpiles a large number of credits in order to break into centrals, so I think that might give nice returns.

I'll be putting Accounting in at 1 or 2 of and pulling out the Paywall Implementation for that.

Orion is an easy add at 1 or 2, and I'll be trying some of the other constellation Ice as well. I really like Wormhole in particular. The question is how many of those Ice I choose to go with, and do I go all the way and throw in the Constellation Protocols to pull some Blue Sun credit generating shenanigans with them? I think the answer is that I'll at-least try it will all of those added and then make the call of whether its worth it or not for this particular deck.

Oh, I also really love Patch. I particularly relish the idea of patching Archers when my opponent is running Switchblade. That said, it has the inherent anti-synergy with Blue Sun, + deck space is tight, so I don't think any would make the cut for this particular deck.

Since you MUST have OTG to score, why only run two? I run a Blue Sun-Mushin deck also and with three OTG it's still a little sketchy...sometimes the runner snipes one out of HQ/R&D and the other 2 are just on the bottom of the deck, and you lose since you can't score without it. The same thing can be said for running only 2x Mushin, although at least it can't be trashed easily.

This style of deck is very strong when you assemble the combo pieces at the right time; why not increase consistency by running 3x of the upgrades?

Your lack of early game ICE also makes me nervous...if you don't draw OAI in the first turn there's basically nothing standing in between you and Account Siphon, which a good crim player will use to get a bunch of accesses out of you.

Props for the Excalibur tech though, I'm definitely stealing that.

@nybb I touched on the OTG question in my description, but the answer is pretty much that my original deck did play 3x Off the Grid and that I cut the 3rd through playtesting. The main reason is just the fact that I don't even care to see it early game, and with Jackson Howard and Daily Business show I have some nice control over getting it when I do actually want it later on. Mushin isn't required to score (later on I sometimes just leave OTG down after a score then IAA into the server), and again, I don't need it till the mid game. Still I'd likely add the 3rd if it wasn't for the influence cost; as is I've been quite happy with 2.

You're right that I have very few defenses against early game Account Siphon (really just OAI or Hedge Fund + Tollbooth). The nice thing is that sometimes an unrezzed Ice on HQ will make the Runner reluctant to throw down Account Siphon before getting any breakers out for fear of wasting it. I think I would be in pretty big trouble vs a Gabe deck if I didn't get a good starting hand though, they'll just get too many credits from the ID early, + me not rezzing to keep them getting that will encourage them to siphon.

Again, it's a case where my first version had some early game Ice in addition to the big stuff, and I just had so many games where I had no use for it since as soon as I really get going it isn't worth the install cost. It was really just an experiment yanking it all, but I was happy with the results. Certainly I could imagine it losing an occasional game directly because of this, but for all the others the deck is just that much more focused on the end-game plans.

Good comments though, and I definitely encourage anyone trying out this or a similar deck to play it out both ways with those ones.

Could you elaborate a little on the choice of Private Contracts over Restructure? I've been bouncing between 1-2 of either in my Blue Sun deck.

@DarlingSensei sure thing!

Restructure is awesome for Blue Sun because apart from the first few turns you are basically always guaranteed the ability to play it. That said, if you do have to take ICE into hand just for the sake of playing Restructure you can lose a click + some number of credits for install costs lessening the return on your operation somewhat.

Private Contracts is awesome for Blue Sun as well. It is potentially infinitely reusable giving you a Magnum Opus that requires a click to refresh after every 6 uses. The downsides of course are that it is trashable and that it is click-intensive. Given how often the deck would like to just click for money anyways I don't see the second as a large detractor. If the Runner trashes it, that costs them a click and 5 credits, a hefty enough tax that I can live with that outcome as well.

One of the big things I like about Private Contracts is it's something I can get in my starting hand and use to start building my board position immediately. (Without any other economy cards, playing PC and then using it 4 times, or clicking 5 times for credits would both get me to 10 credits after 5 clicks. But two clicks after that and pulling PC into hand puts me at 17 credits and with my economy card available for reuse. I've been pretty happy with how Private Contracts has worked in the deck.

@DarlingSensei You said you've been playing around with both in your Blue Sun deck, what has your experience been? Do you find the burst of Restructure better than the long term use of Private Contracts? Also, do Runners you face more often trash the Private Contracts immediately or not?

I'm interested to see how you have changed this post order and chaos. I'm tinkering with adding the new advanceable for a discount such as Orion to my deck but I'm worried that it's too many moving pieces with the OTG crisium grid combo already.

@argus88 It depends on the deck. I've been playing Blue Sun grail for a while and that deck really loves the sustainability, runner tax, and bluff opportunities on Private Contracts. I think a deck like this needs both the HQ space and clicks freed up by using Restructure.

@Finnbarre My personal O & C thoughts have been to use one Orion as a 4th Curtain Wall and just Fire Wall from the advance able series. Fire Wall taxes almost all fractars heavily and the strength change can help it dodge some efficient counters like Atman and Knight. I would be curious to see if anyone tried the constellation series in this type of deck.

@DarlingSensei I'll give restructure another look, thanks for sharing your experience with the two cards.

@Finnbarre Hey, I've been traveling the past couple of weeks, so I haven't had the chance to playtest any changes yet, or play vs the new O&C cards. That said here are a few of my thoughts:

Like DarlingSensei said, I'll to throw in one Orion, and likely replace a Hadrian's or two with Fire Walls. I will be trying out High-Risk Investment in place of Government Contracts and Housekeeping in place of Paywall Implementation. As far as the other space Ice, I think I'd like to try one or two Wormholes, given how great its routine is and the awesomeness of a 7 strength code gate.

My first inclination was to at-least try going all out with the space ice + constellation protocol + executive boot camp as an econ engine (with all the pieces in place an insane 7+ credits per turn for a single click) however I came to the conclusion that there were simply too many different things going on in the deck at that point, and that was an idea for another deck, not this one.

Those are the changes I would make to the deck based upon the new Corp offerings from O&C, however just as important is the consideration of the new Runner cards.

Elizabeth Mills + Executive Bootcamp are great vs Valencia, so it's nice to already have that there. Similarly, I anticipate more and more people playing Crisium Grid in response to Eater, Wanton Destruction, Account Siphon, Keyhole etc. Having 3 already in and core to the deck is quite nice.

Eater can break Excalibur, which may prompt me to cut down to only a single copy.

As much as I loved playing with "all big ice" I think that window has shut, at-least as long as super agro-anarch is the hotness. I worry that my current Ice setup leaves me too vulnerable to first turn Keyhole or Wonton Destruction plays. Additionally, having only costly super-taxing ice is countered strongly by the new cutlery events which I expect to be very popular especially in the near future. For both those reasons I think I need to add in some cheap Ice. I could go a couple different ways with that.

1) Ice Wall + Quandary: Great for stopping turn 1 Keyhole/Wanton plays, ideal for blocking the cutlery events (and simultaneously nice vs Inside Job). Largely worthless once breakers are installed if not facing cutlery events.

2) Datapike + Fire Wall + Caduceus: Mid-range ice; still good turn 1, decent though more costly cutlery blocks while retaining usefulness for taxing into the mid and late game.

3) Rainbow: interesting in being able to block all three cutlery events.

4) Architect: Amazing subroutines, and I'd love to have architect even more now in order to render Archers behind him completely invulnerable to Forked. The trick is digging up the influence. I could see myself cutting a Tollbooth though when adding in Wormhole.

It's going to take me a bit of play-testing to decide exactly how I want to modify, but I'm definitely expecting to make some adjustments to the Ice composition with those thoughts in mind. As for which Ice is coming out, Hadrian's walls and the Enigma, and possibly one Excalibur or one Tollbooth.

@Shishu I've been working on a deck very similar to this and considered Government Takeover. However, I think the ability to score an agenda the turn after you play it with Mushin No Shin trumps the lower agenda density.