Tenmorrhage v2.4 MWL (1st Place Store Champ)

Looks good! Did you run remotes often to try and steal agendas? I see you don't have any remote-support for breaking barriers.

Sorry, other than Femme for bypassing.

I did indeed find remotes troubling sometimes. Hardest matchups have been Jinteki RP, and HB Glacier decks which lock me out.

Where there's a will, there's a way I guess... sometimes... I was playing against one NBN deck, that kept trying to sneak in some Beales, but I had 3 inside job's in hand, and enough money for traces that I was able to waltz through with no breakers at all (I did this 3 times). Femme might help skip some barriers, but it seems like a waste to use it on an ice wall or something small. I would like to put a different Fracter in this deck, but Inf is really tight as it is.

I guess though, if you keep milling cards from their HQ, there are other points of attack to get the agendas. The centrals are a pretty good target for this deck. But yes, you are right, remotes are a weak spot for this deck.

Did you find yourself low on cash/in need of the Desperado credits? You mentioned slotting Doppelgänger instead. I'd be inclined to go -2 Desperado +2 Doppelgänger +1 Corroder -1 Enhanced Vision.

That would for sure be a legitimate change. I would go -2 Desperado -1 Breach +2 Doppelgänger +1 Corroder (in my mind, Enhanced Vision is such a good card)

Hitting 2 open remotes in one click, each with a Security Testing token on it would be 4 credits in 1 click + 2 Hemorrhage tokens, + card draw, + whatever else.

The problem becomes later in the game when the servers start getting ICEd up. Then the second Doppelgänger run becomes less likely, or less efficient, since there are less open servers. It will cost you more credits to get into a server, more than security testing would make you. When tweaking the deck, I found that the cumulative effect of the Desperado credits over the entire game added up to be much more substantial than credits made through double Doppelgänger runs (it was hard to get out 2 Security Testing early game + 2 open servers).

I will still play around with your suggestion though. Unless a decent Fracter comes into Criminal, what I have now is not optimal!

Have you thought about Singularity?

Oh that's a super nice card. Would be excellent to use to collapse a server that has an Ash and a Caprice in it. It would also put any agendas into the Archives. Run this, trash the upgrades and agendas, and then pop Hades Shard to steal it all.

However, I guess Caprice would still fire first, so the run could just end and this doesn't fire.

3 Influence is rough too.

A card that is worth considering in this style of deck is Jak Sinclair. Once again, influence is tight as a walnut corset, but if he could be squeezed in there (maybe by removing the Shards, or in place of the Retrieval Run), he could work wonders with your "rewards for runs"-strategy.

Does Jak Sinclair work with Doppelgänger? So from my understanding Jak Sinclair allows you to make a run if you choose (it says "may"). If that run was successful, would I be able to run again for free using Doppelgänger (since it says "when a successful run ends"). And then I assume you could use programs on the second Doppelgänger run. That could be awesome. 2 runs without even spending a click.

whoa this is old school as f. i like it

This is crazy, it's so cool to see you win with this. I took second at a regionals with hemo-ken two years ago, what about the current meta made you feel it was viable now? netrunnerdb.com

Wow thanks guys for the comments!

@nobodyhasthis Thanks for popping a message in here! I'm honoured to have you look at this. My deck was originally inspired by yours in an earlier iteration

netrunnerdb.com

However it has changed a bunch since then (including dropping Indexing most recently), so I've been referencing my older decks... hope you don't mind that I used your Hemorrhage idea. I don't want to steal your original idea... I just wanted to make it my own.

I'm not too sure about the current meta. The store tournament was fairly small, so it wasn't a good representation of the meta at large, and I probably lucked out in winning. In my mind, Criminals are not in a good place in the current meta. I feel there has been fairly weak support for them in the past few cycles (I'm not an expert by any means though). But to me, I was playing in that tournament for fun, not to win.

I don't know about how viable this all is in the general meta, but I just took the elements that I thought were fun to play with and I made something with it. In this specific case, I think running is fun (and making some work compression to go along with it), and the idea that Hemorrhage creates some fun mind games which gives the control of winning or losing ultimately to the Corp (incidentally my Corp deck that helped me get 1st is a Jinteki PE mind games style deck).

Data Leak Reversal just mills the top card of R&D. There's no input and no control to it. The mind games of Hemorrhage is what attracted me to it. If the corp looses due to me popping Hades Shard and grabbing all of their agendas in Archives, well that was up to them; they shouldn't have used Archives as storage.

I've been tinkering with Ken "Express" Tenma: Disappeared Clone for a while now. I feel he captures the essence of the game... he basically says, you need to run; I think it's fun. Winning was just a happy by-product!

In testing with good stuff anarch I've found Hemorrhage to be a surprisingly good card. I think that in many situations it turns out better than Nerve Agent as long as you can get HQ down to a size that you can access everything else.

Paying 4 influence to put it in crim is a tough call for me. In your deck it looks like it works more like general purpose combo prevention, but criminals weakness was never really combos. It's always been glacier. You're paying 8 influence for a couple of cards that don't even help you beat glacier.

Cutlery events, on the other hand...

You are correct for sure. This kills off combos quite awesomely. But as I said in an earlier comment, HB Glacier was a slippery slope. This deck excels against Corp decks that leaves naked remotes, glacier doesn't. Also, again Breach is a hard sell versus glacier. Any suggestions on how to deal with it? No sarcasm intended or anything, I would love some constructive suggestions!

I would love to fit in Emergency Shutdown to shut some ICE down. DDoS could be cool too.

I'm not too sure. You have called me out on this deck's weakness!

Dropping two Hemorrhage is enough influence for two cutlery events and Corroder.

The only changes i would make is to swap the Retrieval Run for a Corroder, I know its one less run event but i think you need a functional barrier breaker.

Would also swap out the two Cerberus "Rex" H2 for a Passport and a Peacock.

I know its not out but the turning wheel will help out a bunch if you can fit in some multi access.

I feel that the direction of this deck as a whole is better suited for Hemorrhage. Knifed Forked Spooned are fantastic cards, but my issue is that the cutlery events are a one time burst (and I couldn't fit in all 3 easily without cutting a Shard). Yes I could recur them with Same Old Thing, but I could use them only a few times, at the expense of other events. They are a great suggestion, but I feel they are a better fit for a more event heavy Ken "Express" Tenma: Disappeared Clone deck. I don't even have a The Maker's Eye in here.

The direction of this current deck is more about poking and prodding. Whittling them down over the long game. Hemorrhage builds up over the game (similar to drip econ), and gets more threatening over time. And while it's building up, I am running HQ, Archives, and Remotes, using my various run events. This deck is about psychological threats and getting the Corp to play suboptimally. Hemorrhage, Bank Job, Hades Shard, Utopia Shard, Security Testing, Enhanced Vision, are all about threatening the corp.

Personally I would like to fit in a Djinn to tutor the Hemorrhage up earlier to help it build up longer... but I have some issues with this play.

@Swiftie I agree Retrieval Run could be swapped out for a Corroder, and that's how I played this for a while. However, I found that if that Corroder got discarded, for whatever reason, I was fairly boned. Ultimately I decided to get some recursion. I know it isn't criminal like to have some, but with the amount that I ran, it was needed (face planting into an Ichi 1.0 more than once wasn't fun).

Interesting suggestions about Cerberus "Rex" H2though. Is Peacock any good? I've never used it. I know Passport is pretty awesome.

I could swap Breach for Aurora... but I don't think anyone should use Aurora ever. However, it might be worthwhile now post MWL, since Eli 1.0 won't be used as often. Thoughts?

@ivanbarker I like to run crim with two corroder, I don't want to sound mean with the advice but part of playing crim is not loosing your breakers. Batty is not that common and its safe from Power Shutdown since you should have Public Terminal out to protect it.

Aurora is just a horrid breaker, only good for getting Wraparound to str 0, would not sub it for that.

Peacock is not that much of a bad breaker, its not the best but it gets through a Tollbooth for the same as a Gordian Blade. Passport is so you can apply early pressure to centrals if need be but you have Eater to deal with it plus passport can get through a central Turing for a credit and i like being able to deal with Archangel if i find one in RnD and don't have an eater out.

Looking forward to trying the deck out in a couple of weeks time.

How many people where at your store champs? 3 other people with just 1 core set? I'm been trying to play this pile and it is awful. There is no way to draw cards, hemorrhage is a bad card that is taking up a ton of influence, and you just straight up lose to NEH FA.

@Spectre It was indeed a small store tournament, and as I said before, I was likely lucky. But thanks for the useful feedback, I'm glad you were able to try the deck! Please let me know what suggestions you have to improve it. I've already tweaked it a bit with the awesome feedback people have given here.

Sorry to be so harsh; losing game after game because I can't draw anything puts me on tilt. Hemorrhage definately isn't worth the influence, neither are the shards probably. Eater is great for use with Masanori and Siphons, but the deck needs more real breakers. Drop Breach for Passport and use the freed up influence from Hemorrhage for Corroder. A more cost effective Sentry breaker is also needed. And ways to draw into all of these things.

To address card draw. Most games I find John Masanori to be sufficient (I include 3 to get him up early). But you need to know when to use John and when to just draw manually. There are turns where you just click to draw (when locked out or looking for John), and while not the most efficient, it beats taking a tag. I would love to add in Symmetrical Visage for when this happens. Often times, I find you don't even need to draw, once you have your engine up and running and are missing John Masanori.

I did run this deck with Mr. Li for a while, and it's great to search out key pieces, but found it click instensive. And what other options are there aside from Earthrise Hotel (which I think is a bit too expensive for a fast deck)?

I find with this deck, if I lose, it's because I messed up in my play. I've been working really hard to be a better runner. Knowing when to run, where to run, and when to be patient, are lessons I'm trying to learn, but really help in the long run (see what I did there?).

I think the Sentry breakers are in an ok place. Faerie is a wonderful card, and Femme Fatale, once you can afford to install (this deck has lots of money, but also Retrieval Run to install for free), is very efficient. Criminal has the best Killers after all. I think I am going to drop one Cerberus "Rex" H2 for a Passport. And I think I'm going to pop Aurora in here and test that. Yes it isn't nearly as efficient as Corroder, but with Inside Job, Femme Fatale tokens, and Breach for centrals, I think it might be passable for those clutch runs. Pre-MWL I would have had 2 more influence, so I'll have to see about swapping Desperado for Doppelgänger as well. No one ever said Criminal was good for Fracters.

Seems like everyone is having an issue of no Corroder. I'm not really a fan of "must includes", and the sky isn't falling, there are work arounds, but I hear you guys and I'll try to come up with something. Thanks for the feedback!

I can't help but feel that Apocalypse would be awesome with Doppelgänger in a deck similar to yours. I'm love playing Ken "Express" Tenma: Disappeared Clone and your deck has given me some idea.

@ivanbarker

You said that Hemorrhage builds up over time and cutlery events are "one off" but I've never thought of ICE trashing that way. Every time you trash ICE you are setting the corp back and giving yourself a discount on future runs. Every time you trash ICE, the benefit is cumulative and lasts the whole game.

Hey, I've got a question. I'm learning to play criminal and would like to get some advice. This deck has many resources, what should I do with tags from Account Siphon? Also what you usually use your Same old things for?

Should I be early agressive, or draw for some running bonuses before running often?

@ahocorasik thanks for the message! Tag management is usually pretty annoying here. You have 2 sources Account Siphon and John Masanori. Previous iterations of this deck included Crash Space (the meat protection was a bonus), but I ultimately cut it. Usually I just Siphon and then use the next 2 clicks to clear the tags... Unless I have no decent resources out, then I'll just float them. Account Siphon tags can be planned for, and you'll have the credits usually to clear it. The more annoying ones are from John Masanori. If you failed a run then you are already in a bad spot. I usually don't run last click just for this reason (you can run click 3). But remember your money, you need 2 credits to clear. John Masanori is a weird card. It gives you something that lets the Corp trash it. However, even if the Corp does trash John, there's 3 in the deck, and they just spent a click and 2 credits. Not the end of the world.

Same Old Thing is super key here. It lets you play whatever event you want, when you want it. Need that Inside Job, Legwork, or Account Siphon? It's all just 2 clicks away. 2 clicks seems like a lot (and really it's kind of 4 clicks, draw and play sot), but it's kind of an event tutor in a way (and you would have to draw and play the event). I use it for what ever I think will be the most damaging. I almost never use it on Sure Gamble. Remember Public Terminal and Ken's ability all work with the sot event.

Typically criminals run aggressive. I have seen games won without a single breaker being installed (not me with this deck, but I have seen it). With this deck I would say, get your pieces that make you money. You want money early game to shut down their economy. Account Siphon isn't just to make money, it's to take theirs away. Games I lose are because the Corp has more credits than me. Poke around early game, get them to waste credits in ice. More ice rezzed means less surprises later. Probably good to have one Faerie out early game. You could draw a card, play a card, run, and then draw? Or some variation of that. Build your rig while drawing for John, but running your events that make you money. You do want to keep a few surprise events in hand though. 3 Inside Jobs in hand is awesome to Bang it out 3 times in a row. It's a balancing game.

Let me know how this deck works for you, and what you think should be changed! There's been great suggestions so far!

Hey congrats on the win! Just curious, what was your record and some of the match ups over the day? This deck seems really fun, I'm looking forward to giving it a shot.

How this deck is supposed to win ? Serious question. I encountered this deck a couple of time these last few days and it never did anything relevant.

Aw man, I've been running Kenmorrage for AGES, but this looks way better than mine! Kudos!

@AkAnderson Thanks for the comment. It is a pretty fun deck. To answer you question, it was a small tournament. And I didn't have a flawless record with this deck. I did lose quite handedly to an HB ETF Foodcoats deck (with some NEXT ICE tossed in). It was an uphill battle, where I couldn't get my breakers out in time. Architect is a horribly wonderful card.

Some notable wins were against a Jinteki Chronos Protocol: Selective Mind-mapping deck, which was annoying, but I fared ok. He had Lockdown in front of HQ and I kept him poor with Account Siphon. Another win was against a NBN Spark Agency: Worldswide Reach deck which rezzed all the Advertisements! However he had lots of open remotes to get my Security Testing on. Both of these wins were actually with Hades Shard.

@Calimsha In all honesty, I don't think this deck is Tier 1 at all... and I am very surprised that it's gained the traction here that it has. I think there are some things that need to be changed to the deck as pointed out by people here. I don't think it's a magical deck that will make you win every time... but I have fun playing with it, and it's got some neat interactions. Win conditions are: 1. Make so HQ is Agenda flooded. This can be done by forcing discards (Corps choice), keeping the Corp poor (Account Siphon, hitting ICE, trashing assets), and some psychological games. 2. All the Agendas end up in Archives (again depends on how you threaten), and can be hit with Hades Shard. 3. Sneak attack on Remotes using Inside Job or Femme Fatale (maybe eventually Corroder when I tweak things). You might have an idea what was placed in a remote using Enhanced Vision. I've had a few games where the Corp doesn't keep more than 2 cards in hand at the end of their turn, since they know I'll force them to discard all the things. Then you have knowledge of what will be placed on the board.

@CommissarFeesh Can you post your list? I'd love to take a look at it and see if I can snag any ideas!

Sure, hadn't published before but here you go.

netrunnerdb.com

"One other trick is to leave 1 single credit on Bank Job, and then you could hit a snare server, and take the credit instead of accessing the server..."

How is this supposed to work? To see the Snare, you have to access. When You access it is too late to use Bank Job.

I guess I mention Snare! because my other deck is a Jinteki: Personal Evolution flatline deck.

Let me propose this. Let's say you make a run, and using Enhanced Vision you see a snare in hq. A couple of turns later the Corp installs a card in a server with 1 unrezzed ice. You decide to run the server with Dirty Laundry (you at first think it's an econ card, or maybe they are bluffing an agenda). You hit the ice, but the Corp doesn't rez it... That's weird. Perhaps they want you to walk through and hit the snare and rezzing would put them below 4 credits. You don't want to jack out since you played dirty laundry, but that event makes you access the card you suspect is a trap. Instead take the Bank Job credit, play it safe and profit from dirty laundry, without a pesky access.

Kind of a very situational play, but combined with the board knowledge that Enhanced Vision gives, it is possible to pull off.

I also don't usually trash traps when they are installed (unless I suspect Trick of Light nonsense). Problem with trashing installed asset traps is that the Corp could just Jackson it back from archives. But if it's installed, the corp has to install over top of it to send it to the archives.

So let's say I run a trap remote server, it's a snare, it activates and that sucks. But I leave it installed. It is now a money making server for bank job, or security testing. Or dirty laundry if you have that bank job credit.

Had major trouble with this deck... don't see the appeal, sorry.

@ivanbarker I like the idea of the deck. After playtesting the deck i want to try this adapted build: netrunnerdb.com Main change is - 1 Hemorrhage, -2 Desperado, + 2 Logos. So i have more influence to change the breaker suite. I also added Symmetrical Visage for draw. With Logos you can catch key pieces, so you get the Hemorrhage at least after first agenda score. A extra copy of Special Order to get the Breaker faster. As suprise i added a Stimhack to hit the Corp if they think they have a scoring window. At least i added a copy of Hunting Grounds because it has a good synergy with John Masanori to avoid unsuccesful runs by hitting a Data Raven or Tollbooth.

Hi @D4KEN It seems your link doesn't work, and I can't find your deck. I would love to have a look at it.

Including Logos instead of Desperado is an awesome idea! An idea which I think solves a bunch of problems. One problem with this deck is not being able to get out Hemorrhage early. I was thinking about Djinn as a tutor for it, but there was influence problems, and I could only include one. Including Logos frees up 2 influence (enough for Corroder) and gives a tutor. I was of course thinking of Doppelgänger to free influence, but I found it became dead later in the game. Doppelgänger is awesome if there's open servers, but later, there usually isn't. Logos on the other hand provides yet ANOTHER threat to the Corp. It says, go ahead, score... you're just making me more awesome. Late game, it would be useful to help grab the Shards. Plus the increased hand size might help with damage decks too.

Now quick questions on Logos. Did you find you missed the Desperado credits? With an install cost of 4, it's higher than Desperado, did you find that hurt your tempo early game? One issue I have is that it might be a while before the Corp scores, and you could have made a lot of runs by then (and stacked up the Hemorrhage tokens). On top of that, you would want Logos early, so you don't miss an early score. My gut feeling is sticking with 2 Logos and 2 Hemorrhage. 4 cards is pretty high odds you would get one in the opening hand. Finally, do you find it fires off enough to be useful? Since it only works when Corp scores, I can imagine it fires off only maybe 3 times a game.

What did you cut to free up space for the extra includes? I've been wanting to figure out how to add in Symmetrical Visage.

In my deck I have now -1 Account Siphon and +1 Running Interference. Running Interference is like Account Siphon and Inside Job rolled into one. I include it to help deal with glacier style decks. Account siphon is sometimes a tough play if HQ is locked down. I found 3 was too many and sometimes would be a dead draw. Running Interference seems to be a silver bullet to help deal with certain styles of decks.

I at first thought Bribery might be good to include, since I could pay 0 for it, target any server, and make money using Ken's ability (also good for Enhanced Login Protocol). Bribery also works with Public Terminal (so tons of credits to boost it). But I figured the utility of Running Interference was a bit better since it targets all the unrezzed ICE. Tough choice since Running Interference is a double.

@D4KEN I got the link. It had a period at the end of it. Here's your updated link

netrunnerdb.com

@ivanbarker Thanks for your feedback, getting out Logos early depends on matchup. Sometimes u need it early sometimes not. But i play against a lot of weyland these days. So i want this really early to punish the corp for scoring Hostile Takeover. Often i take a mulligan to get Logos and Econ. The other point is if you can get John Masanori and Symmetrical Visage out early it helps to keep the hand. The 1 gain from Visage helps a lot. May i cut down a Account Siphon and a Special Order to fill the Public Terminal that i cutted and put in a Running Interference. I like the card but 4 is a lot so you need to get the Terminals out early. Btw. that was my main problem in my games. Even with the 3 copies i got it always to late on table ;)

@ivanbarker need to rework my idea. After some games i find a one of Hemorrhage even with Logos not worthy. Often i picked another card then Hemorrhage because i find it more usefull. So if the main strategy is using Hemo to drop cards from corps hand u need the 2 copies. I will test along with this...

@D4KEN I played a few games with 2 Logos and 2 Hemorrhage. While the idea of Logos is awesome, I found it didn't pull enough weight. In some matchups it was sort of worth it, but in a bunch not so much. It's a cool card, but I find it a bit flawed... you want to be chugging along and making runs even before the Corp can score. If the Corp is already scoring then it'll be an uphill battle. If did Logos fire while testing, it was only once or twice a game (versus Desperado which is every successful run). In games that I won, Logos never fired, and the games that I lost Logos didn't really make a difference since I lost due to lack of credits. Usually in glacier decks, what I've found is that the Corp has a lower agenda density, and take longer to setup a score. So Logos won't fire early enough to matter, and so then we can't tutor a card early. If the Corp is scoring quickly, then they are probably playing a fairly horizontal game, which would leave lots of open servers to get extra Desperado credits from.

This deck really wants the credits from Desperado. Without Desperado I found myself clicking too often for credits.

That being said, substituting Symmetrical Visage for Bank Job is a pretty good call. I was leaning pretty heavy on Symmetrical Visage. Plus with 2 Symmetrical Visage and 3 John Masanori, you are bound to get something early. Symmetrical Visage and John Masanori combined is a good combo, it lets you draw 2 cards a turn with bonuses. Win.

One thing I've been reconsidering is Retrieval Run. I love the card, and I think it's fantastic to install Femme Fatale with. However, I think it's a bit flawed in a way. If the Corp trashes your programs, and ICEs up Archives... well then you can't get your programs back since you can't break the ICE because you have no programs. A single Barrier ICE could prevent any program recursion. Not too sure how I feel about this.

Running Interference has been successful, but so has Bribery. Either one of those cards would be welcome in this deck.

@ivanbarker what about this: netrunnerdb.com

Removed the Retrieval Run and the Bank Job. So it is possible to go back to Desperado even with Corroder. Bribery for one-iced Server and Running Interference for multi-iced. Depending on Meta Femme Fatale could be replaced by Alias or Garrote.

Think this could work as intended. Btw. i did't used Retrival Run a single time.

@D4KEN thanks for the extensive testing and ideas!

Retrieval Run is for sure a card that could be removed. I personally like it, and it's a good way to get Femme Fatale to the table, or snatch back Hemorrhage. I've had various things done to me that cause me to want my programs back, but I blame my play style (maybe a bit too aggressive at times). But it is perfectly 2 influence, which is what Corroder is. You'll have to let me know if you miss it.

I'm not too sure I would run both Bribery AND Running Interference. They are both kind of situational silver bullets. But play around with both, and see which you use more. So far I'm leaning towards Bribery (less cost, less clicks, can be used to generate credits, cancel ELP, I mind less if Corp doesn't rez ICE, can be used on Pop-up), but I'd like to hear what you think.

I wouldn't use Garrote myself. Fantastically efficient card, but the 2 MU requirement is killer for this deck. MU is already tight with all the programs.

I am testing some modifications and work arounds. I will report back once I play more.

I'm in @ivanbarker's playgroup and we've spent a lot of time talking about this deck. In my opinion this deck is an absolute monster if it gets set up. It becomes nearly impossible to stop him from doing his thing, every click he takes means a serious advantage for the runner (he has more money, he is probably going to install what he drew, he sees your HQ, etc.) and as the corp you end up having to install everything just so it doesn't get trashed.

The deck feels interactive and fun to play AGAINST, which is a rarity.

However, I agree with Ivan, this deck is nowhere near Tier 1. This deck makes Ken consistent but he still hurts really badly if he makes a poor run early, gets a John Masanori tag and then gets all his resources trashed, for example. It's a deck with lots of moving parts that is only really good if you're playing at peak.

I lost to this deck at the store champs (I played the Spark Agency: Worldswide Reach he mentioned), and it was a complete sweep and it was firing on all cylinders. On the other hand, Ivan can attest that I hadn't lost to the deck for a while before that. Mostly because the deck slowed down for a few turns because of no early economy, or a series of poor draws, and then the Hemorrhage tokens don't roll in anymore, so the pressure is not quite there etc.

This deck is maybe one or two cards away from being REALLY good, and it mostly needs flexibility. I think Bribery as mentioned before is a good example of that. If you want to surprise the fuck out of people in your meta though, this is a good place to start.